The path of "god-realization" seems like a waste of time.

[The Blade]

Interestingly, I haven't seen anyone who practices god-realization end up any better off in any practical sense.  Are you sure you want to go down that rabbit hole?  None of it seems to be based in fact, but rather subjective, theoretical metaphysics born from abstract philosophy and mental impressions.  In short, it seems like a waste of time, and certainly nothing worth dumping faith into.  To borrow a term from Leo, it really does appear to simply be "mental masturbation".

Perhaps you can elaborate.  How do you know the path of "god-realization" is both:

1. True
2. Not a waste of time

[Vibes]

If you truly desire understanding, you don't have a choice. You are in the game and only understanding will fulfill you.

Feel Leo's teachings touching deep inside you.

Or, just be arrogant.

[The Blade]

First, I just re-read my OP and it sounded a tad "against" the notion of god-realization, this was accidental; this is a field I find intruguing, and I assumed this forum is a good place to ask questions on the subject.  My questions are genuinely derived out of a desire to learn.

7 minutes ago, Vibes said:

If you truly desire understanding, you don't have a choice. You are in the game and only understanding will fulfill you.

Feel Leo's teachings touching deep inside you.

Or, just be arrogant.

1) "Understanding" what?  I'm unsure what you're referring to.

2) I'm happy to allow anyone's teachings to sway my own thinking, so long as they seem legitimate, and filtered through a sieve of critical thinking.  In my studies, I have found what seems to be legitimate teachings, and have adapted them with great results.  However, god-realization teachings do not have me convinced, they seem quite sloppy and arbitrary.  Perhaps one of you can clean the concepts up?  I know that doing this is part of actualized.org's mission, but I'm still not convinced that it is true or a practical means of improving one's life.

3) I apologize if I come across arrogant, but I'm rather unapologetically seeking answers.

[Hojo]

You dont understand how important this is. It is the most important thing a human can do. You think getting a nice car is the pinnacle of humanhood? This is the philosophers stone, you gain immortality by recognizing you are god

Edited February 8, 2023 by Hojo

[Osaid]

57 minutes ago, The Blade said:

To borrow a term from Leo, it really does appear to simply be "mental masturbation".

That's probably because it only exists as mental masturbation for you right now. That can be changed with meditation and mystical experiences and the like.

Quote

Perhaps you can elaborate.  How do you know the path of "god-realization" is both:

1. True

Determining what is and isn't true is actually an aspect of "god-realization" or realizing God. So I think you actually already see the utility.

 

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Osaid

[WelcometoReality]

2 hours ago, The Blade said:

Interestingly, I haven't seen anyone who practices god-realization end up any better off in any practical sense.  Are you sure you want to go down that rabbit hole?  None of it seems to be based in fact, but rather subjective, theoretical metaphysics born from abstract philosophy and mental impressions.  In short, it seems like a waste of time, and certainly nothing worth dumping faith into.  To borrow a term from Leo, it really does appear to simply be "mental masturbation".

Perhaps you can elaborate.  How do you know the path of "god-realization" is both:

1. True
2. Not a waste of time

I'm not gonna make a sales pitch for any "path" but ask you if you value truth? 

Because that's how it all started for me. I questioned what was actually true or not.

For example if you are being cut off in traffic and you say "what a d#@k". It that actually true?

Or is the tree a tree? Where have you learned that it is a tree? Where does it start and end? If a mushroom is growing on the tree is it a part of the tree or are they separate from each other?

It's simply an investigation into truth. 

[Moksha]

2 hours ago, The Blade said:

None of it seems to be based in fact, but rather subjective, theoretical metaphysics born from abstract philosophy and mental impressions.  In short, it seems like a waste of time, and certainly nothing worth dumping faith into.

You’re talking about God-conceptualization, not God-realization. I agree philosophical pontification is a waste of time. A lot of that happens on these forums. Awakening to your ultimate nature is not ideological or conceptual. It is direct realization, the resonance of light with itself, entirely free from thought. In that moment, there is no you, only pure being.

In this light, attachments dissolve and suffering recedes. Peace, creativity, and joy are abundant. How could it be a waste of time when it flows beyond time.

It doesn’t make sense to the mind, nor can it because it is not born of the mind. It is the direct unspoken language of God.

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Moksha

[InfinityBeats]

1 hour ago, The Blade said:

1) "Understanding" what?  I'm unsure what you're referring to.

I think he's referring to questions such as: what is the point of life? are other people real? what is the best use of my time here? where did I come from? what's going to happen when I die? Is god real? Are demons real? If so what does this mean for me? If God is real, should I practice a certain religion? Is enlightenment real? Can I escape suffering all together or should I just try to make my circumstances as ideal as possible? Will good circumstances make me happy? Do I really want anything other than to just be happy? Can I always trust science and rationality? Is spirituality and religion all just bullshit? etc. 

This is basically the rabbit hole that I would say can be summed up as just seeking understanding. It doesn't appear that you are quite in it yet, as your main question seems just to be "what is the best thing I can do to become better off in a practical sense?" which is 100% fine and I would just keep following that question as honestly as possible, basically exactly what you are doing by posting here.

If you keep following that question and keep finding new methods which bring you more and more satisfaction in life, then that's great, don't ever stop.

However, it's definitely possible that at some point questions like the ones I listed above will start bothering you, and nothing will become more important than getting those questions answered, and when that happens, again just seek 100% honestly and authentically.

With something like god realization, you will never get the external objective proof you are looking for, you can only try to find out for yourself. So the answer to the question of "How do you know the path of "god-realization" is both true and not a waste of time?" is: you don't know. But you can get to the point where you desire to know this answer more than anything else (aka "Understanding") and you are willing to get to the bottom of it yourself. If you get to that point, do that. Until you're there, just keep doing what you're doing.

[Leo Gura]

@The Blade I could shoot myself in the head and be more conscious than every human on this planet.

But hey, don't let me interfere with your silly games.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[tuku747]

Consciousness is not what you think...

It's what You Are

[The Blade]

2 hours ago, Hojo said:

You dont understand how important this is. It is the most important thing a human can do. You think getting a nice car is the pinnacle of humanhood? This is the philosophers stone, you gain immortality by recognizing you are god

I'm open to the possibility that this is the most important thing a human can do, yet I'm also open to the possibility that you only believe this is the most important thing a human can do.  So far, I'm not inspired put faith in the concept and run with it.  I'm looking for good evidence, or an argument with air-tight logic.  I'm all ears.

1 hour ago, Osaid said:

That's probably because it only exists as mental masturbation for you right now. That can be changed with meditation and mystical experiences and the like.

Determining what is and isn't true is actually an aspect of "god-realization" or realizing God. So I think you actually already see the utility.

 

 

I listened to the first one all the way through some time ago.  I can't help but like Leo, he has a very interesting mind and I respect his dedication to life fulfillment and existential questioning.  However, nothing in that video leads me to believe certain metaphysical truths based off philosophy and mental impressions.  It feels as though we're trying to make scientific conclusions without doing the science.  That doesn't mean god-realization concepts are wrong, but I'd need more to go off of before choosing to do a cannonball into those waters.  I haven't listened to those two other videos you posted, perhaps I should and see what he has to say.

From what I've gathered, I lean a bit more towards the traditional scientific blend of balancing open-mindedness with skepticism.  I do not embrace radical open-mindedness, or radical anything.  "Radical" is by definition an imbalance, and balance is a core concept of my philosophy.

26 minutes ago, WelcometoReality said:

I'm not gonna make a sales pitch for any "path" but ask you if you value truth? 

Because that's how it all started for me. I questioned what was actually true or not.

For example if you are being cut off in traffic and you say "what a d#@k". It that actually true?

Or is the tree a tree? Where have you learned that it is a tree? Where does it start and end? If a mushroom is growing on the tree is it a part of the tree or are they separate from each other?

It's simply an investigation into truth. 

The reason I've made this post is because truth is the primary foundational element for all life fulfillment.  If god-realization is the ultimate truth, it is obviously worth pursuing.  It would be the thing to pursue.

I like how you've reflected upon the thoughts we have, and our judgements.  The idea of dropping labels, for example, is a wonderful way to peel back the mind's veil on reality.  As a teen I had an epiphany, maybe some would call it a spiritual awakening.  Afterwards, I gained an ability to drop labels entirely.  To see a tree and no longer think "tree" was to be hit by a tidal wave of stimuli; to see, even in the dullest objects, oceans of detail which were always there yet never recognized in my default state.  Sheer bliss.  This ability even extended to words; to view a page from a book without my mind grabbing hold of a single word, to see the letters for the strange arrangement of lines that they really are.  Eventually, with practice, I could hear someone speaking and not grab onto the words they were saying, but instead take in the sounds themselves, as if hearing a person speak in a foreign tongue.  My high-school teachers didn't like when I did this exercise...

Applying this to the label of my "self" has a similar effect, but perhaps a bit more earth-shattering.  The mental constructs fall away, the constant narrative in my head suddenly disintegrates.  You suddenly feel like a dog off the leash, able to experience your own existence without the ball-and-chain of constant thinking.

25 minutes ago, Moksha said:

You’re talking about God-conceptualization, not God-realization. I agree philosophical pontification is a waste of time. A lot of that happens on these forums. Awakening to your ultimate nature is not ideological or conceptual. It is direct realization, the resonance of light with itself, entirely free from thought. In that moment, there is no you, only pure being.

In this light, attachments dissolve and suffering recedes. Peace, creativity, and joy are abundant. How could it be a waste of time when it flows beyond time.

It doesn’t make sense to the mind, nor can it because it is not born of the mind. It is the direct unspoken language of God.

 

I didn't know there was a difference, thank you.  I do have the ability to be free of thought, it can be a very useful tool.  It does make me feel more clear, as if I'm no longer seeing life through an algae-covered fishbowl.  It's clean, true.  The way I personally drop thoughts it is through awareness fueled by a reverence for existence.  One-hundred percent observation.  When the soul's eyes are wide open, there's no space for thought.

I am not sure we're talking about the same thing... maybe we are, but we use different terminology.

24 minutes ago, InfinityBeats said:

I think he's referring to questions such as: what is the point of life? are other people real? what is the best use of my time here? where did I come from? what's going to happen when I die? Is god real? Are demons real? If so what does this mean for me? If God is real, should I practice a certain religion? Is enlightenment real? Can I escape suffering all together or should I just try to make my circumstances as ideal as possible? Will good circumstances make me happy? Do I really want anything other than to just be happy? Can I always trust science and rationality? Is spirituality and religion all just bullshit? etc. 

This is basically the rabbit hole that I would say can be summed up as just seeking understanding. It doesn't appear that you are quite in it yet, as your main question seems just to be "what is the best thing I can do to become better off in a practical sense?" which is 100% fine and I would just keep following that question as honestly as possible, basically exactly what you are doing by posting here.

If you keep following that question and keep finding new methods which bring you more and more satisfaction in life, then that's great, don't ever stop.

However, it's definitely possible that at some point questions like the ones I listed above will start bothering you, and nothing will become more important than getting those questions answered, and when that happens, again just seek 100% honestly and authentically.

With something like god realization, you will never get the external objective proof you are looking for, you can only try to find out for yourself. So the answer to the question of "How do you know the path of "god-realization" is both true and not a waste of time?" is: you don't know. But you can get to the point where you desire to know this answer more than anything else (aka "Understanding") and you are willing to get to the bottom of it yourself. If you get to that point, do that. Until you're there, just keep doing what you're doing.

You had good information and advice in this post, thank you.  I think you're correct; the "god-realization" hard evidence probably isn't there, because it isn't a "hard" subject.  There's nothing hard about mental impressions and experiences.

The skeptic in me has noticed that I haven't seen anyone go super deep down this rabbit hole and return with a nugget of wisdom from the cosmos which makes me say, "Whoa, what in the hell did this guy just experience?  How did he know that?".  Post-psychedelic ramblings sound, generally speaking, like something that one on drugs would say.  Nothing amazingly profound.  I know language is limited, but it isn't that limited.  However, the incredible consistency of god-realization experiences (from people all across the world for thousands of years) makes me very intrigued, I can't help but feel that there could be something there.  But there are two issues:

1. The impressions could be explained biologically.  A sense of losing one's self and becoming one with the fabric of the cosmos be he result of the OAA part of your brain losing energy.  The Orientation Association Area is the part of the brain that lets you know where you end and the outside world begins, which requires a lot of energy to maintain.  Extreme focus via meditation (or, workaround with psychedelics) can shut down the OAA and you become "one" with your surroundings.  Sounds true from a scientific standpoint, we are a collection of particles in a nearly infinite sea of particles.  Does a temporary disablement of the OAA help us feel that fact, rather than just know?  Does it allow us to experience the "truth" of physical reality?  Maybe.  P.S. I learned most of what I said about the OAA from this video here, and I haven't fact-checked his sources, so please take my information on the OAA with a grain of salt.
    
2. I'm still not so sure that people who experience this profound realization are necessarily living better lives.  They seem to for a while.  They get hit with an initial "whoa" period, like coming off a 5D ride times a million, but then it resides somewhere in the background.  Gradually, they return to their default state, sometimes fueled by a bitterness for others who haven't had the same experience or who don't care to hear about it.  I'm speaking of a person I worked with in particular, but I've seen it in others.
   
   I think there may be more direct and long-lasting means of attaining a spiritual and fulfilled state of being.

 

22 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@The Blade I could shoot myself in the head and be more conscious than every human on this planet.

But hey, don't let me interfere with your silly games.

20 minutes ago, tuku747 said:

Consciousness is not what you think...

It's what You Are

Good way of putting it. 

Descartes said "I think, therefore I am."  Perhaps it'd be more accurate to say "I am, therefore I am."

[SOUL]

@The Blade  I'm not sure if you could have found a more vague goal than you did with 'end up better off' but everyone has different destinations on this path.

If I were to offer up my own vague goal so to speak, when one has 'well being' their behavior springs from that source of inspiration to encourage well being in others and not doubt another's path to it. If you don't have any use for finding your own inner meaning of well being but only see it as a waste of time then nobody's path will appeal to you, not even one of your own choosing, whatever form that may be.

Or you could spend time mental masturbating about what others may be.

 

@Leo Gura Genuine wisdom and infinite revelation is realized in interrupting one's own silly games.

Edited February 8, 2023 by SOUL

[The Blade]

11 minutes ago, SOUL said:

@The Blade  I'm not sure if you could have found a more vague goal than you did with 'end up better off' but everyone has different destinations on this path.

If I were to offer up my own vague goal so to speak, when one has 'well being' their behavior springs from that source of inspiration to encourage well being in others and not doubt another's path to it. If you don't have any use for finding your own inner meaning of well being but only see it as a waste of time then nobody's path will appeal to you, not even one of your own choosing, whatever form that may be.

Or you could spend time mental masturbating about what others may be.

 

@Leo Gura Genuine wisdom and infinite revelation is realized in interrupting one's own silly games.

I'm being a bit vague intentionally.  Everyone has a different opinion as to what constitutes "well-being".  But, for the sake of this post, let's just say - do you think pursuers of god-realization are more well off by your definition of "well-being"?

So, your definition of well-being is essentially altruism, plus a non-judgmental acceptance of the paths of others, whatever those paths may be.  Do those who are "god-realized" seem more or less altruistic and accepting?

Personally, I haven't seen a major difference.

Edited February 8, 2023 by The Blade

[SOUL]

49 minutes ago, The Blade said:

I'm being a bit vague intentionally.  Everyone has a different opinion as to what constitutes "well-being".  But, for the sake of this post, let's just say - do you think pursuers of god-realization are more well off by your definition of "well-being"?

So, your definition of well-being is essentially altruism, plus a non-judgmental acceptance of the paths of others, whatever those paths may be.  Do those who are "god-realized" seem more or less altruistic and accepting?

Personally, I haven't seen a major difference.

Yes, defining these vague terms can be quite a chore but let me attempt to simplify my experience of well being to something that may seem abstract, so bear with me.

Any goal of inner meaning in one's path can be it's own hurdle if someone perceives and believes they don't have it. With external circumstances, getting them to conform to one's desires doesn't have really the ability to fulfill the inner sense of well being.

Also, by its paradoxical inevitability a path that perceives and believes one to not have 'god realization', 'well being', 'enlightenment', 'salvation' or whatever one prefers to call this inner state of being one perceives and believes is absent, then they don't have it.

When someone creates and believes in the hoop to jump through, it's the hoop that ironically keeps them out. I told you it may seem abstract, but it's described as plain as I can.

There isn't anything to 'do' to 'be well', just be it.

Edited February 8, 2023 by SOUL

[WelcometoReality]

52 minutes ago, The Blade said:

The reason I've made this post is because truth is the primary foundational element for all life fulfillment.  If god-realization is the ultimate truth, it is obviously worth pursuing.  It would be the thing to pursue.

I like how you've reflected upon the thoughts we have, and our judgements.  The idea of dropping labels, for example, is a wonderful way to peel back the mind's veil on reality.  As a teen I had an epiphany, maybe some would call it a spiritual awakening.  Afterwards, I gained an ability to drop labels entirely.  To see a tree and no longer think "tree" was to be hit by a tidal wave of stimuli; to see, even in the dullest objects, oceans of detail which were always there yet never recognized in my default state.  Sheer bliss.  This ability even extended to words; to view a page from a book without my mind grabbing hold of a single word, to see the letters for the strange arrangement of lines that they really are.  Eventually, with practice, I could hear someone speaking and not grab onto the words they were saying, but instead take in the sounds themselves, as if hearing a person speak in a foreign tongue.  My high-school teachers didn't like when I did this exercise...

Applying this to the label of my "self" has a similar effect, but perhaps a bit more earth-shattering.  The mental constructs fall away, the constant narrative in my head suddenly disintegrates.  You suddenly feel like a dog off the leash, able to experience your own existence without the ball-and-chain of constant thinking.

Beautiful! 

What more is left to seek and realize after this?

[Rafael Thundercat]

@The Blade Do your home work bro. I am doing psycadelics for around 6 years, everymonth. I watched all Leo videos, some of the most foundation ones more than one time, I had read many Osho books,Zen masters,Buddha shit, and observing my fucking mind since teenagehood, having a lot lucid dreams and contemplating on how can these dreams be possible or explained. Some people here probably are working on this more time and devotion than I do. 

If you are making a calculation of your time or if this journey will be worth the effort, I just can say I am 42 and I still fell I have a lot to learn or unlearn and a lot to let go and surrender, because as far as I can predict, in the rigth time Total Surrender will be only option, resistence will be useless. 

[Rafael Thundercat]

6 hours ago, The Blade said:

 However, god-realization teachings do not have me convinced, they seem quite sloppy and arbitrary.  Perhaps one of you can clean the concepts up?  

Sometimes I do this simple meditation to myself when I start to enter in conceptual confusion:

Ok,you can sit here and conceptualize as you wish about what is God and coming with pre-digesested answers that God is Infinity,Shiva,Brahama,All in One, one in all... blablabla.. you name it.. but first to enter in this conceptual game, remember that You are. You are and this bubble you see around You in  moving, talking,shitting,working, all this and You included.. What is this? What is You.?

Try to make this without coming up with a pre-digested concept or parroting stuff you had learn in your formation.

You even must first Be in order to elaborate if something is worth pursuing or not. 

[Kshantivadin]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I could shoot myself in the head and be more conscious than every human on this planet.

What made you so different from everybody else? Could you name a few things? 

[Rahra]

Permanent God-Consciousness came with a price, but I would choose it again and again if I could. 

I will not lose, and I fear no evil, for God is with me.

God, there is no god or deity but He.

To Him belongs the most glorious names, and to Him we shall return.

[Sincerity]

8 hours ago, The Blade said:

Interestingly, I haven't seen anyone who practices god-realization end up any better off in any practical sense.

You haven't looked enough.

Here is my post with "benefits" I'm experiencing because of awakening. It's been only 1,5 weeks so far, but still. I feel like it's only getting better.

I've been shooting for God-realization and it's paid off immensely. And I'm only at the start of my journey, lol.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Sincerity