The main problem with today's progressives

[Scholar]

It's actually profoundly simple:

Today, progressives seek to disseminate and force their ideology or development through tactics of fear and shame. This can work when you are a dominating majority, and those you shame are in the absolute minority. Or at least, it did work in the past.

However, this inherently is a regression to stage blue, conformist thinking. Stage blue wants everyone to behave like jesus. How does stage blue achieve that? Point out everyone who does not behave like jesus and shame them, judge them, make them fear the consequences. This is more akin to conditioning an animal. You are molding human motivational systems to be motivated by fear of judgment, fear of the mob. Of course, nobody in that type of environment will act like Christ. Because Christ did not act out of fear, he acted out of pure love.

In the age of the internet, this peer pressure methodology is no longer functional. The reason why peer pressure functioned in the past is because the peer groups were localized. An individual could not easily escape their peer group. If they were shamed by their peers, they had to conform, or fear complete social isolation.

Today, anyone can find any peer group that will conform to their own ideology. If you're a conspiracy theorist, you will find a group online that believes in your conspiracy theory. You can outcast the most dysfunctional people of society, and they will congregate, create more and more dysfunctional ideologies and systems.

 

You are not changing people by making them fear the wrong opinions. That's how you create conformist robots. That's how you create the very structures which you seek to oppose. Today, shame and fear leads only to division, it losts it's function of unification. Progressives are making the same mistakes the catholic church made, and they will fail the same way.

The way to actually change people is to change their operating system, their values, not merely the opinions they hold. If you changed who they are, if you bring to them more love, a love for truth, then they will arrive at the right conclusions themselves. Do not change that which they believe, change their hearts so that they naturally come to believe the right things.

 

Obviously, the solution here is love. Those you love, you will seek to understand. And those you understand, you can change. This is why you must love your enemy. This is why the Divine urges you to stop indulging in your arrogance, in your judgment and your mockery. Their suffering is your suffering, their ignorance is your ignorance, their evil is your evil.

As always, to make the world a better place, you have to begin with yourself. As long as you do not care pure love in your heart, the world your actions will create will not be a world of love. You will make your own problems the problem of the world.

[Hatfort]

... is that there aren't enough of them.

[Leo Gura]

8 hours ago, Scholar said:

The way to actually change people is to change their operating system, their values

How do you change a conservative's values without preaching progressive values at them?

The reason there is a culture war is precisely over defining our values. The values being taught in universities is what conservatives are against.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Leo Gura

[ZGROPIUS]

@Scholar Thank you for writing these. I love to hear these thoughts.

[Recursoinominado]

13 hours ago, Scholar said:

Obviously, the solution here is love. Those you love, you will seek to understand. And those you understand, you can change. This is why you must love your enemy. This is why the Divine urges you to stop indulging in your arrogance, in your judgment and your mockery. Their suffering is your suffering, their ignorance is your ignorance, their evil is your evil.

Yeah, try to change someone who has murderous intent towards you with love.

If leaved unchecked, conservatives turns into fascists, religious fundamentalists and they commit all kinds of atrocious acts in the name of God.

Most people in society are moved through fear, not "high values". We have laws and criminal justice because of that.

Progressives, in a way, are very realistic in the sense that they know people can turn into monsters really fast, they don't try to "change their values with love" because this takes generations and we don't have this time, people are being murdered NOW.

I don't care if a homophobic conservative isn' t killing gay people because of fear, social shame or he just were touched by love, JUST DON'T KILL GAYS.

[Devin]

22 hours ago, Scholar said:

It's actually profoundly simple:

Today, progressives seek to disseminate and force their ideology or development through tactics of fear and shame.

Can you provide an example please?

[Ulax]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

How do you change a conservative's values without preaching progressive values at them?

The reason there is a culture war is precisely over defining our values. The values being taught in universities is what conservatives are against.

@Leo Gura Surely you want to move a conservative into orange first then preach green at them? Green is too high for them when at blue

[Jodistrict]

The Christian missionaries have shoved their ideology down the throats of natives for centuries.  They opened up boarding schools run by pedophiles to abuse their native students.   The churches are full of abusers.  Native leaders in Brasil, Colombia, and Peru are being murdered by developers who want their land.  These conservative crybabies haven't received even 1 percent of what they have dished out.   They are in a protected bubble and panic when even just a little air gets in.  

[SeaMonster]

On 2/1/2023 at 4:47 PM, Scholar said:

Today, progressives seek to disseminate and force their ideology or development through tactics of fear and shame. This can work when you are a dominating majority, and those you shame are in the absolute minority. Or at least, it did work in the past.

There's nothing inherently "progressive" about modern leftist dogma (such as intersectionality) which is a regression to tribalism and group identity.  It's authoritarian, collectivist, triumphalist and really, based in romantic irrationalism.  There is nothing resembling "progress" in such dogma by any metric a reasonable person would recognize.

[Recursoinominado]

8 minutes ago, SeaMonster said:

There's nothing inherently "progressive" about modern leftist dogma (such as intersectionality) which is a regression to tribalism and group identity.  It's authoritarian, collectivist, triumphalist and really, based in romantic irrationalism.  There is nothing resembling "progress" in such dogma by any metric a reasonable person would recognize.

Big words, all non-sense.

[Danioover9000]

@Scholar

On 2023-02-01 at 9:47 PM, Scholar said:

It's actually profoundly simple:

Today, progressives seek to disseminate and force their ideology or development through tactics of fear and shame. This can work when you are a dominating majority, and those you shame are in the absolute minority. Or at least, it did work in the past.

However, this inherently is a regression to stage blue, conformist thinking. Stage blue wants everyone to behave like jesus. How does stage blue achieve that? Point out everyone who does not behave like jesus and shame them, judge them, make them fear the consequences. This is more akin to conditioning an animal. You are molding human motivational systems to be motivated by fear of judgment, fear of the mob. Of course, nobody in that type of environment will act like Christ. Because Christ did not act out of fear, he acted out of pure love.

In the age of the internet, this peer pressure methodology is no longer functional. The reason why peer pressure functioned in the past is because the peer groups were localized. An individual could not easily escape their peer group. If they were shamed by their peers, they had to conform, or fear complete social isolation.

Today, anyone can find any peer group that will conform to their own ideology. If you're a conspiracy theorist, you will find a group online that believes in your conspiracy theory. You can outcast the most dysfunctional people of society, and they will congregate, create more and more dysfunctional ideologies and systems.

 

You are not changing people by making them fear the wrong opinions. That's how you create conformist robots. That's how you create the very structures which you seek to oppose. Today, shame and fear leads only to division, it losts it's function of unification. Progressives are making the same mistakes the catholic church made, and they will fail the same way.

The way to actually change people is to change their operating system, their values, not merely the opinions they hold. If you changed who they are, if you bring to them more love, a love for truth, then they will arrive at the right conclusions themselves. Do not change that which they believe, change their hearts so that they naturally come to believe the right things.

 

Obviously, the solution here is love. Those you love, you will seek to understand. And those you understand, you can change. This is why you must love your enemy. This is why the Divine urges you to stop indulging in your arrogance, in your judgment and your mockery. Their suffering is your suffering, their ignorance is your ignorance, their evil is your evil.

As always, to make the world a better place, you have to begin with yourself. As long as you do not care pure love in your heart, the world your actions will create will not be a world of love. You will make your own problems the problem of the world.

   Jeez, this is another high quality thread by you. What are you taking to produce such high quality content?

   I'm reminded by a YouTube video similar to this topic. A debate between the two Davids:

 

[axiom]

11 hours ago, Recursoinominado said:

If leaved unchecked, conservatives turns into fascists

If left unchecked, socialism (interventionism) leans towards fascism.

[Recursoinominado]

1 minute ago, axiom said:

If left unchecked, socialism (interventionism) leans towards fascism.

You don't know what fascism is and we have plenty of historical examples of socialist experiences and none turn into "fascism".

Today we have Cuba and China, both unchecked and no "fascism".

[axiom]

@Recursoinominado 

2 minutes ago, Recursoinominado said:

You don't know what fascism is

Two can play that game, so here goes:

You don't know what "not knowing what fascism is" is.

Cuba has obvious fascist leanings.

China has plenty of the hallmarks of fascism. Granted it's not a perfect example, but it's not a bad one. If you don't understand why, then (and again I'm paraphrasing you here) you don't understand what China is.

Let's not forget that Hitler's childhood crush, Mussolini  - the prototypical, quintessential angry socialist - invented fascism.

 

 

[Hardkill]

3 hours ago, Ulax said:

@Leo Gura Surely you want to move a conservative into orange first then preach green at them? Green is too high for them when at blue

Leo did actually say that himself in his video on "Why Bernie Sanders Lost."

But the problem with progressives isn't actually so much that they use these tactics of fear and shame. It in fact, the problem they really have is that most of them don't know how to relate well to people's cultures values or connect well with them on an emotional well. 

As James Carville has said before, "Wokeness is a problem" and progressives use “Faculty lounge” politics. 

Progressives might also be pushing the Democratic party too far to the left. That could be a real electoral problem for the party in the future.

https://youtu.be/3d886hjFaYg?t=2155

Edited February 3, 2023 by Hardkill

[Ulax]

1 hour ago, Hardkill said:

Leo did actually say that himself in his video on "Why Bernie Sanders Lost."

But the problem with progressives isn't actually so much that they use these tactics of fear and shame. It in fact, the problem they really have is that most of them don't know how to relate well to people's cultures values or connect well with them on an emotional well. 

As James Carville has said before, "Wokeness is a problem" and progressives use “Faculty lounge” politics. 

@Hardkill I would agree with your ideas surrounding not generally knowing too well about how to relate to other people's cultures or connecting with them on an emotional level. 

However, I would actually disagree with the idea that progressives use faculty lounge politics. Imo, that is too charitable a critique. Many progressive think they are engaging in faculty lounge politics when they are not. Instead, they cling to some theoretical ideology that is concocted within the academy, whilst ignoring an integrated and, to my mind, actual faculty lounge opinion which would include a lot of room for political science. Actual faculty lounge politics would appeal to other culture's values imo.

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, Ulax said:

@Leo Gura Surely you want to move a conservative into orange first then preach green at them? Green is too high for them when at blue

Orange is quite dominant already in America. We don't exactly lack Orange.

[Ulax]

@Leo Gura Fairs, maybe we use conservative in different senses. I tend to see a conservative as predominantly blue and more faith based in their right wingness. I would then see a capitalist as predominantly orange. 

[Hardkill]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Orange is quite dominant already in America. We don't exactly lack Orange.

I get that, but what about the fact that we still have too many people in America who are primarily stuck at stage Blue or are somewhere between stage Blue and Stage Orange? What about even some of the other people in America that are between stage Red and stage Blue?

How will all those Americans who are in those stages of the spiral transition into Green in the future?

Edited February 3, 2023 by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

16 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

How will all those Americans who are in those stages of the spiral transition into Green in the future?

Kicking and screaming.

How else?