Can an ethical society be as successful as an unethical one?

[UpperMaster]

I am curious to know whether it is possible to create a society that operates on ethical principles and values, yet still remains competitive with those that do not prioritize ethics. This is important to consider as it raises questions about the trade-offs between moral integrity and success in today's globalized and highly interconnected world. Is it possible to achieve both, or do we have to sacrifice one for the other?

 

China's use of the Belt and Road Initiative to lay debt traps for other countries raises concerns about the potential for these nations to become dependent on China. Can a society that prioritizes ethics and fair labor practices still achieve the level of influence and power that China has attained through unethical means?

[Leo Gura]

America is way more ethical than China or Russia. So yes.

The problem with unethical behavior is that it cannabilizes itself and lowers GDP because people don't wanna live there. It's like living in an abusive relationship.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Leo Gura

[UpperMaster]

38 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

America is way more ethical than China or Russia. So yes.

America gained most of its power through deception, the amount of damage the US as caused is (for example: middle east, India) is insane. Easily one of the most unethical nations in my opinion.

 

After conducting some research, I have found that Scandinavian countries are known for their high ethical standards. However, they are not as powerful as countries like the US or China. In my opinion, a country's power is important because it determines its ability to defend itself against potential aggressors. For example, if China were to target a Scandinavian country, it would likely be able to easily overpower it due to the disparity in power.

Edited January 25, 2023 by UpperMaster

[Sucuk Ekmek]

Ethics conceptualize what is right or wrong. I don't thing any written or unwritten law is going to help any society at all. . Ethics are for cavemen so they can call it day.

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, UpperMaster said:

America gained most of its power through deception, the amount of damage the US as caused is (for example: middle east, India) is insane. Easily one of the most unethical nations in my opinion

It's all relative.

Even so, America is way more ethical than Russia or China.

What you should consider is that ethics is only possible AFTER you have secured your survival. So the sooner you go exploit a 3rd world country and steal their resources, the sooner you can become ethical! This is not a mistake! Yes, America became so ethical precisely by screwing lots of people over first.

You are not judging ethics by the lifetime of a country, you are judging it by where the country stands today.

You have to appreciate how brutal survival is.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Leo Gura

[UpperMaster]

22 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's all relative.

Even so, America is way more ethical than Russia or China.

What you should consider is that ethics is only possible AFTER you have secured your survival. So the sooner you go exploit a 3rd world country and steal their resources, the sooner you can become ethical! This is not a mistake! Yes, America became so ethical precisely by screwing lots of people over first.

I agree with you here. 

22 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You are not judging ethics by the lifetime of a country, you are judging it by where the country stands today.

You have to appreciate how brutal survival is.

I know we are talking about societies, but do you think this line of thinking is the same when it comes to individuals?  

So in a sense being stage red and stage orange SD is very much necessary. It all depends on the end results. 

[UpperMaster]

22 hours ago, Sucuk Ekmek said:

Ethics conceptualize what is right or wrong. I don't thing any written or unwritten law is going to help any society at all. . Ethics are for cavemen so they can call it day.

I do agree, ethics don't objectively exist. But I'd rather live in an ethical society than an un-ethical on. These made up ethics can give us an idea on how to conduct society so that all benefits

[Matt23]

22 hours ago, Sucuk Ekmek said:

Ethics conceptualize what is right or wrong. I don't thing any written or unwritten law is going to help any society at all. . Ethics are for cavemen so they can call it day.

I make a distinction between ethics and morals.  They are close.  But morals are like what you describe above... more-so the "written" stuff, or rule-based things.  "Shoulds"  "I 've been told by my parents that lying is bad, so I don't lie to my mother or else I'll feel guilty and like I did something bad."

Ethics I think is more based on love, compassion, and treating the things and people you care about with respect, compassion, kindness, and from the desire for them to be happy and healthy.   "Wants"  "I want for my mother to be happy, so I treat her with respect and don't lie to her."  For example.

I think there's room for both in that both probably have healthy and unhealthy expressions and circumstances where they could be used positively and negatively.

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, UpperMaster said:

I know we are talking about societies, but do you think this line of thinking is the same when it comes to individuals?  

So in a sense being stage red and stage orange SD is very much necessary. It all depends on the end results. 

Yes, of course.

You cannot be an ethical person if your children are starving and your country is so poor you can't find a job. The notion of ethics doesn't even exist in such places. This is why 3rd world countries are so corrupt and violent.

Red is just a strategy for how to live in a certain enviroment you were dropped into.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Rafael Thundercat]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, of course.

You cannot be an ethical person if your children are starving and your country is so poor you can't find a job. The notion of ethics doesn't even exist in such places. This is why 3rd world countries are so corrupt and violent.

Red is just a strategy for how to live in a certain enviroment you were dropped into.

Well even in America, if you dont have a roof to live you can ignore the construction laws and built you own DIY in the sidewalk. 

When desesperation strikes the man need to bootstrap as he can. 

 

[UpperMaster]

On 1/27/2023 at 0:23 AM, Leo Gura said:

Yes, of course.

You cannot be an ethical person if your children are starving and your country is so poor you can't find a job. The notion of ethics doesn't even exist in such places. This is why 3rd world countries are so corrupt and violent.

 

yea this makes sense to me. 

 

On 1/27/2023 at 0:23 AM, Leo Gura said:

Red is just a strategy for how to live in a certain enviroment you were dropped into.

Then why should there be an incentive to rise to a SD stage that is higher than the environment your dropped in? Why does it makes sense to be stage green in a stage orange society? Like I would imagine, a stage green president wont survive in a predominantly stage orange politics. 

In a sense, aren't you trapped in an SD stage through surroundings?

btw thanks for replying. 

[UpperMaster]

@Rafael Thundercat  Interesting

 

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, UpperMaster said:

Then why should there be an incentive to rise to a SD stage that is higher than the environment your dropped in? Why does it makes sense to be stage green in a stage orange society? Like I would imagine, a stage green president wont survive in a predominantly stage orange politics. 

Because life gets better the higher you go.

Being a politician is a very specific situatuon which is very Spiral-sensitive. Most other careers and lifestyles aren't like that.

Quote

In a sense, aren't you trapped in an SD stage through surroundings?

To some extent. But don't create a glass ceiling for yourself.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Sucuk Ekmek]

On 26.01.2023 at 9:36 PM, UpperMaster said:

 But I'd rather live in an ethical society than an un-ethical on. 

We been trying to do this for past 2000 years.

On 26.01.2023 at 9:36 PM, UpperMaster said:

 These made up ethics can give us an idea on how to conduct society so that all benefits

These made up ethics are coming from war machine, money laundering & printing, health fraud scams, all the corruption you can name...

''We suppose to benefit from blood money or someone else will''. This is what ethics seems to suggest to me, and yeah as society at large we do benefit from that. But this is unethical...

or maybe ethical... or some ethical...

On 26.01.2023 at 9:56 PM, Matt23 said:

I make a distinction between ethics and morals.  They are close.  But morals are like what you describe above... more-so the "written" stuff, or rule-based things.  "Shoulds"  "I 've been told by my parents that lying is bad, so I don't lie to my mother or else I'll feel guilty and like I did something bad."

 

I am trying to emphasize, but this is simply a machine code for me. I know lying is bad but I also know girls are good 

On 26.01.2023 at 9:56 PM, Matt23 said:

Ethics I think is more based on love, compassion, and treating the things and people you care about with respect, compassion, kindness, and from the desire for them to be happy and healthy.   "Wants"  "I want for my mother to be happy, so I treat her with respect and don't lie to her."  For example.

If ethics are based on love then there would be absolutely no problem about being unethical.

 

On 26.01.2023 at 9:56 PM, Matt23 said:

I think there's room for both in that both probably have healthy and unhealthy expressions and circumstances where they could be used positively and negatively.

It looks to me  ''how to be a human 101''