Does suffering actually build character?

[bloomer]

I feel this is just a lie so that you shut up and don't complain about your problems. Am I wrong in my feeling?

[jimwell]

5 minutes ago, bloomer said:

I feel this is just a lie so that you shut up and don't complain about your problems. Am I wrong in my feeling?

Yes, you are wrong. If you experience extreme suffering for a long time, you will not be the same human. Either you will be better or bitter, or both. It all depends on what you do or how you react to the suffering. 

[something_else]

It does, to a point. Suffering that induces deep trauma is probably not going to build character. Unless overcoming that trauma is something you put a lot of effort into.

But the kind of suffering that is not going to give you any trauma is very good for personal growth and character building.

[bloomer]

@jimwell

Just now, jimwell said:

Yes, you are wrong. If you experience extreme suffering for a long time, you will not be the same human. Either you will be better or bitter, or both. It all depends on what you do or how you react to the suffering. 

Sure you won't be the same human, but this term "character" is so insanely nebulous that it lacks any substance. I think the implication in the statement "suffering builds character" is that the suffering will become less painful the more of it you suffer. Which may be true to some degree dependent upon the suffering. But not really. I think suffering can help in that regard if it doesn't cripple, traumatize or deeply wound/scar you. Also some suffering will never be endurable in quite the same way. It's hard to envision how a man can endure self immolation for example. 

@something_else

Just now, something_else said:

Unless overcoming that trauma is something you put a lot of effort into.

This is might point. I think a lot of suffering you get literally nothing valuable out of. It seems a very dangerous and destructive idea to believe suffering can be valuable. 

[something_else]

8 minutes ago, bloomer said:

This is might point. I think a lot of suffering you get literally nothing valuable out of. It seems a very dangerous and destructive idea to believe suffering can be valuable. 

I don't think most suffering is the kind that produces deep trauma. Generally anything valuable that isn't immediate gratification requires some amount of suffering or sacrifice in order to obtain, for example. And most of that isn't traumatic.

[universe]

Funny because being a character is the prerequisite for suffering.

But it could be to the extend that you have to Grow in order to stop suffering. So when you have managed to see reality in a way that a situation that previously made you suffer doesn't anymore. Thats Growth.

[bloomer]

@universe

1 minute ago, universe said:

But it could be to the extend that you have to Grow in order to stop suffering. So when you have managed to see reality in a way that a situation that previously made you suffer doesn't anymore. Thats Growth.

That's a really good point. You've just summed up all meaningful self improvement. It really is that simple.

@something_else

7 minutes ago, something_else said:

I don't think most suffering is the kind that produces deep trauma. Generally anything valuable that isn't immediate gratification requires some amount of suffering or sacrifice in order to obtain, for example. And most of that isn't traumatic.

Sure I agree with that. When I made this thread the kink of suffering I was thinking of isn't the kind of suffering you take on willingly in the pursuit of a goal but more like disease or starvation etc...

[Leo Gura]

Conscious suffering does.

There is a big difference between conscious and unconscious suffering. Unconscious suffering will turn you into a monster. Conscious suffering will turn you into a saint.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Leo Gura

[bloomer]

@Leo Gura

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Conscious suffering does.

There is a big difference between conscious and unconscious suffering. Unconscious suffering will turn you into a monster.

What's the fundamental difference between conscious and unconscious suffering?

[Inliytened1]

Just now, bloomer said:

@Leo Gura

What's the fundamental difference between conscious and unconscious suffering?

Learning from your mistakes 

[Bob Seeker]

10 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Learning from your mistakes 

And taking responsibility for your life rather than blaming

[jimwell]

2 hours ago, bloomer said:

This is might point. I think a lot of suffering you get literally nothing valuable out of. It seems a very dangerous and destructive idea to believe suffering can be valuable. 

Your belief about suffering being valueless is the real danger. I don't know much about the story behind that suicidal monk. But I am open to the possibility that the monk considered his "tribe" to be worth dying for, hence he murdered himself via fire. The only question is why he thought his tribe was worth dying for.

But yes, many humans inflict needless suffering on themselves and others because of ignorance and selfishness. Your job is NOT to be one of them.

 

2 hours ago, bloomer said:

I think the implication in the statement "suffering builds character" is that the suffering will become less painful the more of it you suffer.

This is wrong.

 

2 hours ago, bloomer said:

But not really. I think suffering can help in that regard if it doesn't cripple, traumatize or deeply wound/scar you.

The truth is, the bigger the wound or trauma you conquer, the bigger the growth you gain. How do I know this? Via direct experience. I have experienced a few of the greatest mental-emotional tortures God could ever inflict on its creatures; from extreme childhood abuse, to being involved in a motorbike accident at age 16 which fractured my skull and murdered a drunk suicidal human, to extreme anxiety (OCD, BDD, GAD, etc.), suicidal depression, to being born in a 3rd world country, divorce, wage slavery, to being persecuted for being integrous, etc. I never gave up on myself via drugs or self-murder. I stood up for myself for decades. And that's exactly the reason I am who I am now. And I love and feel good about myself. If you have keen senses, you will know I am very mentally mature. 

Even if there was a button which I could press to erase the extreme suffering I experienced, or at least to replace the extreme suffering with something better, I would NOT press that button. That's how valuable the extreme suffering is to me. 

But I do empathize with humans and animals who suffer. I have a few close friends in college who murdered themselves because of extreme suffering. I feel sorry for them and I wish they didn't suffer that way, or at least they had the internal resources to conquer the suffering. I wish God could be more empathetic towards its creatures and lessen the torture it has inflicted on them this time. I myself don't want to experience another extreme suffering. It's time to breathe.  

Edited January 25, 2023 by jimwell

[StarStruck]

Suffering doesn't build character.

Suffering is just suffering. Just like energy is energy.

But you can use this "suffering" to become aware of your inner mechanics and upgrade your inner mechanics.

So suffering just a device. Energy to observe, comprehend and transcend.

[Leo Gura]

29 minutes ago, bloomer said:

@Leo Gura

What's the fundamental difference between conscious and unconscious suffering?

Consciousness

[gettoefl]

6 hours ago, bloomer said:

@Leo Gura

What's the fundamental difference between conscious and unconscious suffering?

unconscious is what everyone be doing, they fight it and blame anyone and anything

conscious is, come at me bro ... i welcome every twist and turn of suffering as i know it's for my good

conscious develops your suffering muscle 

to the extent you suffer (consciously) is the extent to which you can understand another's suffering

namely it turns up the empathy button and makes love for the first time possible

[hyruga]

Suffering builds character. Just look at David Goggins or Jocko W.

Bad times create strong people.

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by hyruga

[bloomer]

@Leo Gura

20 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Consciousness

Funny. Yeah I mean what exactly are you being conscious of.

@StarStruck

21 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Suffering doesn't build character.

Suffering is just suffering. Just like energy is energy.

But you can use this "suffering" to become aware of your inner mechanics and upgrade your inner mechanics.

So suffering just a device. Energy to observe, comprehend and transcend.

This was put eloquently and summed up my exact thoughts. Thank you. 

@hyruga

2 hours ago, hyruga said:

David Goggins or Jocko W.

Two good examples of men who found a way to build their inner mechanisms.

@Bob Seeker @Inliytened1

Both very true.

@jimwell

21 hours ago, jimwell said:

Your belief about suffering being valueless is the real danger.

It's what suffering can lead to which has value, not suffering itself.

 

[jimwell]

1 hour ago, bloomer said:

It's what suffering can lead to which has value, not suffering itself.

It's similar to saying it is cooked ramen which has value, not fire itself, hence fire is valueless.

 How do you produce cooked ramen without fire (or heat)? Fire is valuable as fuck!

[bloomer]

@jimwell

Just now, jimwell said:

It's similar to saying it is cooked ramen which has value, not fire itself, hence fire is valueless.

 How do you produce cooked ramen without fire (or heat)? Fire is valuable as fuck!

Look to @StarStruck post. He explains it well. I disagree with your analogy. 

23 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Suffering doesn't build character.

Suffering is just suffering. Just like energy is energy.

But you can use this "suffering" to become aware of your inner mechanics and upgrade your inner mechanics.

So suffering just a device. Energy to observe, comprehend and transcend.

Heat doesn't cook ramen. 

Heat is just heat. Just like ramen is just ramen.

But you can use heat to cook ramen.

So heat is just a tool. To cook, roast and make succulent ramen cooked.  

I guess you could make the argument heat/suffering is valuable but it's not the heat that is valued only the result which is cooked ramen/a stronger character. I value you the result more. If it was possible to remove the device to get there and still get the end result why wouldn't you @jimwell?

[jimwell]

3 minutes ago, bloomer said:

I guess you could make the argument heat/suffering is valuable but it's not the heat that is valued only the result which is cooked ramen/a stronger character. I value you the result more. If it was possible to remove the device to get there and still get the end result why wouldn't you @jimwell?

 Why complicate things? You should simplify things instead.

Of course; if there was a way to produce cooked ramen without using heat, I would go that way.

Unfortunately, in this world we live in, it is only heat which produces cooked ramen; hence heat is valuable.