Constructive criticism for Leo

[Sempiternity]

Just another point of view. If everyone keeps harping on Leo, he just might come to the conclusion that all this is not worth it, and shut down the forum for good. Would you be happy then? Not condoning or defending Leo's words, just saying if you all keep this up, you may not like what happens.  

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, PenguinPablo said:

@Emerald This girl is so fucking smart. Love it.

Seriously, amazed.

Thank you

54 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

@Emerald Don't worry, he's teaching men how to go for women who actually have femininity. Not women who make everything about power and who enter power-struggles with men for no reason. Cuz, guess what - you can't lead a woman who is fighting you for power. He teaches men to lead women properly and ethically. 

The whole power-thing is a projection. 

My point is that men try to make women feel powerless because they feel powerless to women.

And they feel powerless to women LONG before any woman plays power games with them.

Some of these men never even speak to any women and yet still feel victimized by them and powerless to them.

The origin point for this powerlessness isn’t women at all, actually. It just feels like it is.

It’s feelings of shame put upon them by a culture that has so many arbitrary expectations of men. And women get cast in this arbitrary expectation story as the determiner of male worth.

And so many men (in varying degrees) are shadow boxing women and competing in a one-sided fight that they are convinced they are the victims of.

And to protect themselves from shame (and the powerlessness they feel in response to women) they try to minimize women’s power and importance in relationships and in general… and posture as the strong superior masculine man who is the dominant leader of his inferior woman.

He positions himself as the one who loves less… and perhaps even avoids love in his relationships, so that he can maintain an imbalance and avoid feeling powerless.

And the women who believe these men’s stories start to internalize these feelings of shame and powerlessness. And they start trying to outgun him in the game he’s playing to avoid their own wounds.

But it’s all just one big coping mechanism toward a deep shame that originates in men and is projected into women.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Emerald

[Emerald]

40 minutes ago, vladorion said:

The only place he teaches you to lead women is to your bed, for a quick pump and dump.

That’s not actually true. Leo does seem to genuinely value love and relationships.

And while not against pick up and one night stands, his goal seems to be to help young nerdy guys break out of their shell and meet women… and grow in that way.

[mr_engineer]

10 minutes ago, Emerald said:

My point is that men try to make women feel powerless because they feel powerless to women.

This is the projection. The truth is the other way around. Women try to make men feel powerless, because they feel powerless to men! 

Stop playing these power-games and everything will be fine. Men will figure themselves out. Don't get in the way. 

And, as far as your power is concerned - you don't have to fight men for it. There is this thing called 'feminine power' that you can step into! Learn more about it. 

Edited February 5, 2023 by mr_engineer

[mr_engineer]

[Emerald]

Just now, mr_engineer said:

This is the projection. The truth is the other way around. Women try to make men feel powerless, because they feel powerless to men! 

Some women do feel powerless to men. And these women will often play power games because that’s how people cope with feelings of powerlessness.

But if you observe without bias, you’ll notice that men are grappling with this issue significantly more than women are. And it’s not because of anything women directly did usually… it usually comes way before anything like that happens.

You have entire communities of men (Red Pill, Incel, MRAs, MGTOW, etc.) that exist mostly so that men can either wallow in their feelings of shame and powerlessness relative to women in the case of Incels and Black Pill… or fight and vent against their shame and powerlessness in the case of Red Pill, MRAs, MGTOW, and some facets of the PUA community.

And in each of these communities, there is both an obsession and hatred towards women PRECISELY because these men feel totally powerless to women.

And women do this on a smaller scale in reaction to all of this. You’ll find little mini-communities of bitter women grousing about men.

But it’s nowhere near on the same scale and it’s usually reactionary in nature.

There is no equivalent “womanosphere” to the manosphere because women don’t feel as powerless to men as men feel to women. And we collectively aren’t  as compelled to create these self-soothing echo chambers.

But it isn’t just guys in the manosphere that have this problem. Those are the moser extreme cases where the shame and powerlessness is the most intense.

Most men, in varying degrees feel shame and powerlessness in relation to women. And misogyny (from mild to severe) is a common coping mechanism that’s employed to avoid those vulnerable feelings.

[mr_engineer]

5 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Some women do feel powerless to men. And these women will often play power games because that’s how people cope with feelings of powerlessness.

What are those women who aren't feeling powerless to men doing right? 

Ma'am, you don't know one thing about what it's like to be a man, so I'd suggest you stay out of shit-talking men. 

Edited February 5, 2023 by mr_engineer

[Inliytened1]

@Emerald @No Name was banned so there is no point in addressing her in this thread.

 

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, mr_engineer said:

What are those women who aren't feeling powerless to men doing right? 

Women who don’t feel powerless to men have to realize some things… here are a few…

1. Men are NOT unfeeling creatures that are incapable of loving. Consciously or unconsciously, men crave love very intensely just as women do.

2. Love and lust are two different things. And while most men fantasize about tons of hot women, they don’t fall in love that way. And most men who get tons of sex with hot women end up finding it empty after a while. When it comes to love, it’s all about how you make him feel.

3. Men are not actually that picky when it comes to looks… and if they are really picky about looks they’re probably that way to stay on the surface level and avoid the vulnerability that comes with love

4. Some men will say they want submissive women that are self-diminishing because they don’t feel confident in themselves. And they don’t feel good enough to be with a confident woman with high self esteem.

And the reality is that men universally respond with love the most to confident women who challenge them in positive ways.

But if a woman has low self esteem and listens to what the guy says, she may try to self diminish. This actually makes her less compelling because she isn’t challenging.

And this enables the insecure man to feel comfortable with her because he feels superior by contrast. He won’t fall in love with her and she won’t have any power over him because of that. It’s just an easy-going relationship that he’s not invested in.

So, you have to learn this as a woman to recognize your power and that the best men will want you at your best.

5. Misogyny is actually a reflection of fear and insecurity toward women. Secure men are at peace with women.

6. You cannot lose lovability. It doesn’t expire.

7. Most of the time, men are more scared of you than you are of them.

[Emerald]

3 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

@Emerald @No Name was banned so there is no point in addressing her in this thread.

 

I didn’t realize that

[NoSelfSelf]

@Emerald So what do you think is the alternative to power struggle: " man being above and woman under him " what is the problem of that dynamic why does it look mysoginistic? You said make her feel shame and inferior how does he do that?

[mr_engineer]

@Emerald Oh! Okay, you're not totally full of shit, you actually have some positive things to say about men. Good to see that. 

14 minutes ago, Emerald said:

4. Some men will say they want submissive women that are self-diminishing because they don’t feel confident in themselves. And they don’t feel good enough to be with a confident woman with high self esteem.

This is the only point I don't fully agree with. From a feminine perspective, submissiveness doesn't have to be self-diminishing. Because, receptivity is a part of feminine power. 

Would you say that rejecting the 'insecure men' is a fear-based decision? You may call it 'pragmatism' or 'safety'. Is 'insecurity' in a man associated with 'unsafety'? 

Edited February 5, 2023 by mr_engineer

[Emerald]

2 minutes ago, NoSelfSelf said:

@Emerald So what do you think is the alternative to power struggle: " man being above and woman under him " what is the problem of that dynamic why does it look mysoginistic? You said make her feel shame and inferior how does he do that?

The alternative is to recognize the humanity in the other person, and how the desire for love and the feelings of shame (combined with ignorance to the humanity of the opposite sex) create misunderstanding and feelings of unnecessary hatred and bitterness.

And once you see this, you can line up with people who are also on that wavelength and simply won’t be attracted to those who are still in the power struggle.

And the reason the power struggle looks misogynistic is because it’s a dynamic of collective scapegoating. This is where an individual feels ashamed of themselves and projects that shame and judgment onto another group to feel better about themselves by contrast.

It’s the self-aggravating and simultaneously self-soothing of judging the other as lesser and we become the greater by contrast.

And usually men will say things that relate to looks/age, competence level, social role, stereotype, etc. to criticize women or make them feel diminished in importance in some way.

[TheAlchemist]

@Emerald What can an individual man do to stop this pattern in their own life? Or is that something that is so systemic and deeply ingrained that only a large scale shift in these expectations placed on men and the cultural values fuelling them will make a difference?

So, assuming your assessment is true, what can I do as a man to not be insecure about receiving love from a woman and to stop perpetuating this cycle?

Edited February 5, 2023 by TheAlchemist

[Emerald]

11 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

@Emerald Oh! Okay, you're not totally full of shit, you actually have some positive things to say about men. Good to see that. 

This is the only point I don't fully agree with. From a feminine perspective, submissiveness doesn't have to be self-diminishing. Because, receptivity is a part of feminine power. 

Would you say that rejecting the 'insecure men' is a fear-based decision? You may call it 'pragmatism' or 'safety'. Is 'insecurity' in a man associated with 'unsafety'? 

First off, I didn’t say anything negative about men in the whole post. I really am just saying what’s evident to me about an emotional pattern that men are experiencing and how men and women are reacting to each other as a result.

But I am differentiating between things like surrender/receptivity and submission.

Submission in the way that I’m defining it here means to forcefully self-diminish to fit into a rigid role…. Whereas surrender and receptivity are a more expansive state of letting go. 

The former is additive where the latter is subtractive.

But insecurity in a man can lead to lots of unsafety for women. The weakling and the tyrant are two sides to one coin.

Plus, once a woman is secure in herself, insecurity in men becomes unattractive.

So, it’s not usually a conscious decision at that point. So, it isn’t really defensive because it’s so automatic. The insecure guy just doesn’t ping on the secure woman’s radar.

[NoSelfSelf]

@Emerald When the humanity is recognized..then what changes in power dynamics... how does relationship works if there is no someone above or under, how is polarity spark created then?

 

 

[Emerald]

10 minutes ago, TheAlchemist said:

@Emerald What can an individual man do to stop this pattern in their own life? Or is that something that is so systemic and deeply ingrained that only a large scale shift in these expectations placed on men and the cultural values fuelling them will make a difference?

So, assuming your assessment is true, what can I do as a man to not be insecure about receiving love from a woman and to stop perpetuating this cycle?

The root cause of it is the polarization into the masculine side to the exclusion of the feminine side.

The entirely of humanity (including women) has this issue collectively.

But men are particularly susceptible to this polarization because they are taught that in order to be valid, the have to live up to certain standards of masculinity.

And with this pressure, men try to be more masculine and they try to suppress the feminine in them. And they become ashamed of the feminine in themselves.

So, the shamed feminine side goes into their Shadow. 

And this creates an intense disgust toward the feminine. But it also manifests as an intense longing for the feminine.

There is the part of them that wants to resist the feminine at all costs. And there’s a part of them that wants to integrate the feminine at all costs.

But the kicker is this…

All of this dynamic gets played out externally.

And they project their rejected feminine side onto women. And women become so powerful in men’s eyes for this reason. She represents his rejected feminine side.

And so she becomes the demon angel up on the pedestal, judging male worth.

And object of intense desire…. But with the power to bring about intense shame.

And this can snowball too…

Men reject their feminine side to meet masculine expectations and avoid shame. And they see women as the arbiter that can either redeem or condemn them through acceptance or refusal to integrate (which is interpreted externally as having sex).

And so men respond to this by further polarizing into the masculine and rejecting the feminine… which intensifies the projection and the perception of women’s power.

And me respond to this by polarizing into the masculine and rejecting the feminine…. And so on and so on.

So, the solution is to integrate the feminine side. It’s counterintuitive, but it is the only way to stop projecting tons of power onto women.

[Emerald]

10 minutes ago, NoSelfSelf said:

@Emerald When the humanity is recognized..then what changes in power dynamics... how does relationship works if there is no someone above or under, how is polarity spark created then?

The power differential equalizes and the true polarity can be recognized.

It’s like the Yin Yang sign… the light side (masculine) and the dark side (feminine) are equal. But they are also polarized.

And everyone’s masculine/feminine ratio is different, so optimum polarization comes from finding someone with a complementary ratio.

[mr_engineer]

19 minutes ago, Emerald said:

First off, I didn’t say anything negative about men in the whole post. I really am just saying what’s evident to me about an emotional pattern that men are experiencing and how men and women are reacting to each other as a result.

You didn't. I just tend to want to check whether women who talk the big talk are walking their talk or not. Nothing personal. 

Also, on the one hand, you say that 'submission means to forcefully self-diminish to fit into a rigid role'. And, on the other hand, you say that 'a tyrant is born out of insecurity'. Wouldn't an insecure person in a position of power, or 'tyrant', be moving the line of what the other person's role is, to then disempower the other person? Because, with a role, comes power. So, wouldn't the fluidity of a role actually serve and enable a tyrant? 

For example, in a traditional patriarchy, if a woman's role is to cook, she has the 'power over the kitchen', in a certain sense. The man has to eat whatever she cooks. Now, if he doesn't have clear boundaries in what he likes and doesn't like, this will make him 'insecure'. And, this will make it so he moves the line with what she should cook and that'll become 'controlling and tyrannical', so to speak. (Apply the same logic to sex, if you want) But, if he has clear boundaries as to what he likes, she'll know how to be secure with him and things will run smoothly, even though the roles are 'rigid'. Right?! 

Edited February 5, 2023 by mr_engineer

[NoSelfSelf]

@Emerald I once had integrated masculine and feminine it was like neither of them were shining it created more struggle inside and seeing relationship as equal seems really weak and repelling to me..

In Vikings Vallhala series one guy could lead men to battle and was equal in relationship with a woman, looked really off to me...even tho its more concious way...