Constructive criticism for Leo

[something_else]

Just now, Inliytened1 said:

That may be true in some cases.  But here I'm pointing at the fact that what you have been spoon fed may not be in fact be reality.

No, you categorically said it was not. Meanwhile the person you were responding to was simply suggesting that having an open mind is a good idea.

[Inliytened1]

3 minutes ago, DrugsBunny said:

What exactly takes one day of meditation?

What is "it"? 

Why would this nebulous "it' you're alluding to be equally accessible to all people, as if every living creature has the capacity to become God after 16 hours of consistent meditation? 

You seem more brazenly arrogant here than Leo has in anything I've ever seen him post.

Awakening.  It happens precisely when It is supposed to.  You do not assign and cannot assign a value to it.  

Edited January 26, 2023 by Inliytened1

[DrugsBunny]

Just now, Inliytened1 said:

Awakening.  It happens precisely when It is supposed to.  You do not assign and cannot assign a value to it.  

@Inliytened1 Do you not believe consciousness is infinite? What you're saying is that awakening has one level and one level alone that can be accessed after one day of meditation. So you deny the infinitude of consciousness and awakening. It's as if you're saying "I've had an awakening, therefore it's not possible to experience anything beyond that". 

I also find it funny you say one day of meditation is all it takes, as if even the shallow degree of awakening you experienced is available to anyone who meditates for a whole day. This obviously isn't true, or people who do meditation retreats would consistently report awakening after the first day.

 

[Inliytened1]

5 minutes ago, DrugsBunny said:

@Inliytened1 Do you not believe consciousness is infinite? What you're saying is that awakening has one level and one level alone that can be accessed after one day of meditation.

I'm saying the precise opposite.  You wanted to put Leo on a pedestal for doing over 20 trips.   This is self deception and will prevent you from  awakening if you turn that it into a belief.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Inliytened1

[DrugsBunny]

@Inliytened1 You're making absolutely zero sense. I'm saying that more practice in consciousness work should yield greater results. You're saying there's only one awakening, and it only takes a day of meditation. 

[Inliytened1]

1 minute ago, DrugsBunny said:

@Inliytened1 You're making absolutely zero sense. I'm saying that more practice in consciousness work should yield greater results. You're saying there's only one awakening, and it only takes a day of meditation. 

Zero is infinity.  So more practice doesn't bring you closer to enlightenment.  What brings you closer is suffering.   And selflessness.  Can you be selfless?  This is what it will take.  It will not be the number of trips. 

[mr_engineer]

5 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

I'm saying the precise opposite.  You wanted to put Leo on a pedestal for doing over 20 trips.   This is self deception and will prevent you from  awakening if you turn that it into a belief.

Leo is adopting a scientific attitude towards it. Where, if you want to know what 20 trips have to offer, you do 20 trips. Every trip will be different. 

It's one thing to awaken. Every awakening is unique and every awakening is infinite! (That's a strange-loop) And, it's another thing to qualify yourself to teach awakening. This takes a lot of exploration of awakening in and of itself. To resonate with different kinds of people. 

[zurew]

27 minutes ago, DrugsBunny said:

Leo's always said it's up to the individual to verify what he has claimed, and that simply believing him is not viable, so ultimately there is no merit in taking issue with the controversial claims he has made.

Except there is no rigid,objective process by which you could verify any of his claims and he can always say that you are dumb or not developed enough or you simply need to do more work - so basically he can make any controversial claim and get away with it.

39 minutes ago, DrugsBunny said:

It's obviously possible he can be misguided in some or many regards, but the real failure would be to remain closed-minded to the possibility that this unique experience and dedication towards this work could bring about a deeper perspective than what can currently be found anywhere else.

Share the insights without saying that you are exceptional or wihout saying that your insights are exceptional - let your work and insights speak for themselves. He has no way of verifying whether someone has a deeper perspective or insights than him, so there is no point in saying that you have reached deeper than anyone else.

[thepixelmonk]

7 minutes ago, DrugsBunny said:

@Inliytened1 You're making absolutely zero sense. I'm saying that more practice in consciousness work should yield greater results. You're saying there's only one awakening, and it only takes a day of meditation. 

He doesn't make sense whatsoever and it's blatantly obvious to every other person on the forum. The main person he is trying to deceive is himself. Really nothing other than your run of the mill spiritual bypassing.

[Inliytened1]

Just now, thepixelmonk said:

He doesn't make sense whatsoever and it's blatantly obvious to every other person on the forum. The main person he is trying to deceive is himself. Really nothing other than your run of the mill spiritual bypassing.

Whatever.  Look at my response to him and craft a rebuttal.   

[Thought Art]

18 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Zero is infinity.  So more practice doesn't bring you closer to enlightenment.  What brings you closer is suffering.   And selflessness.  Can you be selfless?  This is what it will take.  It will not be the number of trips. 

Kindly, this is not true. I want everyone here to focus on direct experience. There is a lot of noise around this subject. People on the forum could make a list of all the spiritual tropes, sayings, ideas, beliefs etc... In reality there is a lot of nuance here.

In reality more trips will make a difference. The more spiritual work you do... meditation, contemplation, etc the better. You need to discern structure vs content here.

It's pretty much impossible to meditate your way to a psychedelic state of consciousness in 20 minutes of meditation so please be wary of people when they say these types of things.

In reality, as a consciousness you can be more or less 'conscious'. It's also not linear, and highly complicated and requires implicit understanding to really grasp. However, even the idea of 'enlightenment' is misleading. There are also different schools of enlightenment. Most of them I know require practice and the use of techniques. 

YOU, in the end will have to go all the way, become your own authority on this because there is a lot of people on the forum, and in every spiritual community etc that just spews whatever they believe is true. Their own dogmas etc. You will have to cut through the BS.

If Zero is infinity, and no amount of tripping will bring you closer to enlightenment. You might as well do 200 trips over the next 5-10 years just to be sure. What have you got to lose? If you don't go and get direct experience with different techniques and just listen to what "others" tell you... You are falling into a trap. You might as well: Trip, meditate, do yoga, contemplate, read books, Qigong, gain direct experiences etc.

Simply don't believe an "other" and realize the uselessness of 99% of spiritual debating. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Thought Art

[mr_engineer]

This is not just about getting to awakening, which Buddhism teaches. It's about embodying the principles of an awakened person. 

One of the principles is impermanence. Which is precisely why every awakening is different! Awakening, as an experience, is temporary!! But, life as an enlightened person is a spiritual journey. 

[Inliytened1]

4 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

Kindly, this is not true. I want everyone here to focus on direct experience. There is a lot of noise around this subject. People on the forum could make a list of all the spiritual tropes, sayings, ideas, beliefs etc... In reality there is a lot of nuance here.

In reality more trips will make a difference. The more spiritual work you do... meditation, contemplation, etc the better.. 

No.  The more life you live, the better.  Nothing can be.forced and this is the key point.  Force is ego. You can't put a value on awakening or a number 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Inliytened1

[Inliytened1]

2 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

This is not just about getting to awakening, which Buddhism teaches. It's about embodying the principles of an awakened person. 

One of the principles is impermanence. Which is precisely why every awakening is different! Awakening, as an experience, is temporary!! But, life as an enlightened person is a spiritual journey. 

Yes!

Edited January 26, 2023 by Inliytened1

[DrugsBunny]

2 minutes ago, thepixelmonk said:

He doesn't make sense whatsoever and it's blatantly obvious to every other person on the forum. The main person he is trying to deceive is himself. Really nothing other than your run of the mill spiritual bypassing.

Yeah, it'd be one thing if he were at least putting forth a sensible rebuttal.

4 minutes ago, zurew said:

Share the insights without saying that you are exceptional or wihout saying that your insights are exceptional - let your work and insights speak for themselves. He has no way of verifying whether someone has a deeper perspective or insights than him, so there is no point in saying that you have reached deeper than anyone else.

Leo is a human being, so it seems foolish to expect from him some kind of perfect conformity to whatever decorum is commonly deemed necessary.

The insights of consciousness at a certain point become incommunicable, so obviously some rhetorical flair -- such as hastily asserting that the unrivaled depth of what was experienced has never been talked about elsewhere -- could simply be a casual means to an end of alluding to the immense profundity in lieu of attempting the impossible feat of substantively communicating the incommunicable.

It's obvious to me that you merely take offense at the sight of somebody inadvertently placing themselves as higher authority on a matter which may in fact warrant such an authoritative bent from said person.

My only position is that you should remain open minded to the possibility that his claims have merit. I'm open to the possibility that he is misguided. Can you muster the intellectual integrity to remain open to the possibility that he is correct?

[Thought Art]

20 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

No.  The more life you live, the better.  Nothing can be.forced and this is the key point.  Force is ego. You can't put a value on awakening or a number 

 

I didn't say that.

For 99% of people who would reach the deepest levels of awakening.. which I lack better words to point to. Just going about it willy nilly, sitting for 20 minutes on a cushion and not putting effort or intention into is won't get you anywhere. It's paradoxical that to reach levels of awakening takes effort. That's how every domain of life works. You need clarity, intention, a long time horizon and effort. 

Resisting what I am saying, and all your beliefs around awakening is also ego. So, it's tricky and nearly useless to say "so and so is ego" Yeah, welcome to the murkiest of waters. 

Anyway, I am not debating.

Just, allowing my post to be here for others to read so they can see my perspective that: ONLY THEY can do this. Just smash through and learn to think and awakening for yourself. Don't listen to anyone telling you it's just easy, or this one technique will do it, or that trying to do it is ego. No, you go and do it. You go and discover what is true. You go and try the techniques. You go and become wise. You go and gain direct experience. You go and have deep profound awakenings. You go and discover what is true. You go and develop a backbone to ignore foolish spiritual tropes and dogmas. You go and discover infinite love and the grace of God. You go and become sage. You go and build you deep understanding of reality. You go and meet girls. You go and contemplate. You go and self actualize. Ignore everyone else because they will drag you down. They will nay say you, distract you, saying things which aren't true. They will tell you "enlightenment is so and so". But are THEY enlightened? Are they deeply spiritually pure? Are they deeply awake and emotionally mature? Probably not. So smash through the bullshit and keep going if you really want it. 

When you have your deepest awakenings, when you realize Peace, or stillness or infinite love, or God...  That state of consciousness. That is all I have ever wanted to share with you at the deepest levels. When you reach that awakening you know what so few know. You will say to God "Thank you". It will be worth it. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Thought Art

[Inliytened1]

28 minutes ago, zurew said:

Except there is no rigid,objective process by which you could verify any of his claims and he can always say that you are dumb or not developed enough or you simply need to do more work - so basically he can make any controversial claim and get away with it.

Share the insights without saying that you are exceptional or wihout saying that your insights are exceptional - let your work and insights speak for themselves. He has no way of verifying whether someone has a deeper perspective or insights than him, so there is no point in saying that you have reached deeper than anyone else.

@DrugsBunny its simple.   Take the metaphysical videos.  Consume them with all of your might.  Really digest them because there is a lot of Truth there.  But then sit down and do self inquiry.   Have you ever actually self inquired?  I dont think you have.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Inliytened1

[zurew]

6 minutes ago, DrugsBunny said:

Leo is a human being, so it seems foolish to expect from him some kind of perfect conformity to whatever decorum is commonly deemed necessary.

He is saying things that are unverfiable and using his own subjective metricsystem to say that he reached this and that. I don't think its an impossible ask to not brag about yourself, when you gain new insights. A lot of spiritual teacher can do it, so he can do it as well.

2 minutes ago, DrugsBunny said:

It's obvious to me that you merely take offense at the sight of somebody inadvertently placing themselves as higher authority on a matter which may in fact warrant such an authoritative bent from said person.

He is making himself automatically authoritative by him doing his dick measuring contest and he takes away the focus from his work and putting it on himself (and contrary to this he always claims ,that its not about him, but about his work). He is automatically creating an unnecessary and unusable hierarchy and ladder.

3 minutes ago, DrugsBunny said:

My only position is that you should remain open minded to the possibility that his claims have merit. I'm open to the possibility that he is misguided. Can you muster the intellectual integrity to remain open to the possibility that he is correct?

Yes.

[DrugsBunny]

2 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

@DrugsBunny Have you ever actually self inquired?  I dont think you have.

@Inliytened1 This is where I suspend my polite etiquette with you. As you suggest I have never contemplated my epistemic foundation due to my own lack of cognitive willpower, essentially saying I am stupid, I assert to you that you are easily the least qualified moderator on here and I wouldn't trust you to wipe your own ass let alone guide people into alignment with truth and consciousness. 

5 minutes ago, zurew said:

He is making himself automatically authoritative by him doing his dick measuring contest and he takes away the focus from his work and putting it on himself (and contrary to this he always claims ,that its not about him, but about his work). He is automatically creating an unnecessary and unusable hierarchy and ladder.

I can sympathize with your perspective, but I take issue with the framing you've chosen. Saying Leo is arrogantly indulged in a "dick measuring contest" -- when in fact it could be, and like is the case, that he perceives a necessity in using controversial language which inadvertently (not intentionally) places him as a higher authority on a matter which he clearly has unique dedication towards -- seems to be a personal bias of yours that is not merited with any practical substantiation.

[something_else]

14 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Have you ever actually self inquired? I don't think you have.

That's funny, you're sounding like Leo again  Which is fine, but you did criticise him for using arrogant tones like this.

I think maybe you are heated up from this thread and should take a break from it. Same goes for others as well, probably.

Edited January 26, 2023 by something_else