Constructive criticism for Leo

[zurew]

35 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Well, actually shame is a powerful technique. Up to a point.

Yeah, I shouldn't have said "never" - it can work, but there are better and more effective tools, that you already have the capability to use and execute.

35 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's just really difficult to change my style on a dime. It's like steering an oil tanker.

Its understandable, especially considering how much low quality messages and comments you probably get every day.

35 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I am in the process of upgrading my style to be less aggressive and more respectful. Haven't you noticed? I am getting sweeter every day! 

Yeah, I can see your character development, and I should have given you props for that.

The reason why I felt like I need to give you a little push back on this, is because it seemed like that you first acknowledged that you want to change, and right after that ,it seemed that you started to justify why you did what you did. - and when someone acknowledge something and then right  after that makes a justification and rationalization for it, it comes off as if the acknowledgement wouldn't have happened or as if the acknowledgement would have been honest.

That all being said, I definitely appreaciate your open mindedness for feedback, and I appreciate your ability to self-reflect (all of us can learn from it).

[Leo Gura]

14 minutes ago, zurew said:

and right after that ,it seemed that you started to justify why you did what you did

Well, as I hear such feedback I start to genuinely ask myself, "Why do I have the style that I have? Why do I act arrogant? Is it pure ego or is there some deeper intelligence behind it?"

I've actually contemplated that a lot in the last year. And I discovered there's more behind it than ego. There is also ego, but more than ego.

So the trick for me is to drop the ego but keep the intelligence.

What I have realized profoundly about myself is that everything arrogant I do is intented to cut through all human bullshit, to allow me to awaken to the levels I have. It's quite paradoxical. Because if I wasn't so arrogant I would never have seen through enough spiritual BS to awaken as I have. But now I have to work on undoing the tool I used to get here.

The problem with humility is that it really has to be earned, not adopted as a dogma the way spiritual folk do. Humility is an extremely advanced self-deception mechanism. Of course arrogance is also not right in the end. There has to be a genuine humility, not a facade.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Leo Gura

[no_name]

This is like being in an abusive relationship. Abusive partners are not just abusive, they often have a lot of other great things to offer. So the victim of abuse stays, not because they like the abuse, but because of all these other great things the abuser has - the abusers charm, charisma, knowledge, money, intelligence, status, etc. The recommendation is to always leave the abusive relationship as abuse should not be tolerated, no matter what other great things there are, staying in an abusive relationship will do lots of harm long term and destroy your self esteem. 

Even in my limited enlightenment moments I become more loving and kinder to others. As I become more loving to myself, I am more understand of the struggle of others. 

Also, guess who’s gonna be attracted to this style of communication? Who is used to be talked to in such a belittling and condescending way? People who were abused in childhood, people who see no wrong in being talked like that, people who lack self love. And what do these people do when they get abused? They get hooked - this is familiar territory for them, where they feel so seen and comfortable. Even people who start seeing issues and start seeing it as an abuse - they are going to keep gaslighting themselves, keep playing in the victim-persecutor-rescuer triangle, keep trying to prove some point, change some things, write long posts about why this wrong - but still remain in the game, despite having their intuition scream that something is horribly wrong. 

And what do these people need to recover? A complete opposite of abuse, learn to identify abuse, stop gaslighting themselves about when they are being abused, and only associate with people who treat them with kindness and be the most loving person in the world to themselves.

I also absolutely don’t buy this is all an act and a “style”. If it was, it wouldn’t take him so many years and so much effort to correct his behaviour. People have been calling him out since I first started visiting this forum, way back in 2019. Lots of women and men have called out multiple times his misogynistic behaviour, rudeness, snappiness, put downs etc. Lots of truly enlightened people left this forum because of him.

Some enlightened and wise people still stay here. Many get their clients through this forum, which is understandable, so they choose to look the other way. Unfortunately this gives more credibility to this guy.

In terms of his content, most of it is not new or groundbreaking. If you follow his booklist, most of his videos are based off of that. His exceptional quality is his communication and speaking skills, ability to come up with various examples, explain things in clear and precise ways. 
 

There is a very important concept of flying monkeys in narcissism. I remember reading under one of his YouTube videos some kid writing that Leo is more enlightened than any Zen master who ever lived - that comment had like hundreds/thousands of likes. Where is this kid getting this information from? Have they met all the zen masters who ever lived? Have they met a single zen master? These kids, having no experience in life, get easily brainwashed, cannot yet critically think for themselves, and easily believe it when someone as charismatic and someone who appears so knowledgeable as Leo says they are the most enlightened person to ever exist. These kids then become faithful defendants of Leo’s work (flying monkeys) always on guard for anyone who points out his obvious and massive red flags, always ready to gaslight others (and themselves including) about how great Leo is. Why do they think Leo is the most enlightened person on earth? Because he told them so.

If Leo was a convinced murderer, would you find his content just as valuable? Would you listen/take any advice from such hypocrite? Question: Why is it different when someone is emotionally abusive then? Answer: Because emotional abuse is much more difficult to identify and it’s much more easier to be excused/gaslighted that you’re just imagining things/you’re the problem.

When people show you who they are - believe them.

@flowboy

Edited January 25, 2023 by no_name

[no_name]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Well, as I hear such feedback I start to genuinely ask myself, "Why do I have the style that I have? Why do I act arrogant? Is it pure ego or is there some deeper intelligence behind it?"

I've actually contemplated that a lot in the last year. And I discovered there's more behind it than ego. There is also ego, but more than ego.

So the trick for me is to drop the ego but keep the intelligence.

What I have realized profoundly about myself is that everything arrogant I do is intented to cut through all human bullshit, to allow me to awaken to the levels I have. It's quite paradoxical. Because if I wasn't so arrogant I would never have seen through enough spiritual BS to awaken as I have. But now I have to work on undoing the tool I used to get here.

The problem with humility is that it really has to be earned, not adopted as a dogma the way spiritual folk do. Humility is an extremely advanced self-deception mechanism. Of course arrogance is also not right in the end.

Why are you so misogynistic towards women? What kind of enlightenment do you think women will get to with, for example, being constantly reduced to their looks? What women’s bullshit are you cutting through with that?  

Edited January 25, 2023 by no_name

[Leo Gura]

29 minutes ago, no_name said:

Why are you so misogynistic towards women?

Well, I am a man. So some of that is natural male bias. I would say it's quite mild compared to what you find in the manosphere today.

I don't claim to be cutting through women's bullshit per se. I don't think about gender when talking about existential issues. The stuff you find misogynistic is my dating advice, which is geared towards the needs and desires of typical men.

If there's some bullshit to cut through there, it's that women in general do not understand how men view women. Women have a lot of fantasies about that, which, when contradicted, they preceive as misogynistic. Sometimes it's legit misogyny, and sometimes not.

I have spoken out quite a bit against misogynistic stuff within pickup, redpill, incels, and Tate. And I have several more videos planned on that topic, including one about how girls can avoid abusive men.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Leo Gura

[no_name]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I would say it's quite mild compared to what you find in the manosphere today.

“There are men (/women) out there who are way worse than I am” - this is legit one of the top 3 excuses every male (/female) abuser uses.

 

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, no_name said:

“There are men (/women) out there who are way worse than I am” - this is legit one of the top 3 excuses every male (/female) abuser uses.

You are accusing me of abusing women. That's a rather vile claim which would require some evidence.

Compared to most men I am a saint in how I treat women. Of course it's all relative. You also conveniently ignore how women treat men. You are not angels.

Yes, any judgments of me you make will always be relative to other people.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Leo Gura

[no_name]

 

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You are accusing me of abusing women. That's a rather vile claim which would require some evidence.

Compared to most men I am a saint in how I treat women.

 

You keep using the same excuse “there are people out there who are worse then me, so what I am doing is ok” - this is not a legit excuse. We are not talking about other men here and what other people do is irrelevant here.

You are being abusive (emotionally) towards women when you reduce their existence to mere looks, when you say that women don’t know what they want, when you say that women need to be grateful just for the fact that men are willing to spend time with them, etc. Misogyny is abusive to women. 

Lots of women (and men) have pointed it out to you in the past, so don’t pretend this is all new revelation for you and there is no mountain of evidence for that.

Edited January 25, 2023 by no_name

[Someone here]

49 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Well, as I hear such feedback I start to genuinely ask myself, "Why do I have the style that I have? Why do I act arrogant? Is it pure ego or is there some deeper intelligence behind it?"

I've actually contemplated that a lot in the last year. And I discovered there's more behind it than ego. There is also ego, but more than ego.

So the trick for me is to drop the ego but keep the intelligence.

What I have realized profoundly about myself is that everything arrogant I do is intented to cut through all human bullshit, to allow me to awaken to the levels I have. It's quite paradoxical. Because if I wasn't so arrogant I would never have seen through enough spiritual BS to awaken as I have. But now I have to work on undoing the tool I used to get here.

The problem with humility is that it really has to be earned, not adopted as a dogma the way spiritual folk do. Humility is an extremely advanced self-deception mechanism. Of course arrogance is also not right in the end. There has to be a genuine humility, not a facade.

I'd say the first reason people can be "arrogant" (or, perhaps better said, overconfident and presumptuous), is because we hate uncertainty.
Hence we like to think we KNOW IT (even when we don't).
when i think about it, i seldom hear "I don't know" as an answer from you . 

Second, many people have some kind of "faith" (be it religious, political, popular, scientific...), or belief, and we cling to our faith / belief. To the point to refuse even evidence.because faith makes us feel safe and certain (and we crave safety), so letting go of our belief it's a big loss (even when that belief is harmful).
Think about how many Muslims cling to their faith (even if it makes them miserable), or how many believers in Communism clung for decades to the belief that Russia was kind of an ideal country

If you have a teacher complex, you will find yourself ego involved rather than appreciate the process of everyone learning something new.

This cannot be helped if your internal resources provide only that as a reasonable source of fun. You can dig yourself into a real hole there but if you are flexible and mindful of others, you have a better shot at learning. When possible, allow it to be a mutual experience. .Don’t assume that you are the only teacher here and that we all are your ignorant students. In fact there is few members here that I consider more awake than you.  Like @Moksha and @Consilience and others.  But you seem to believe that you are the most awoke person ever . But that's just simply not true and I have evidence for that . Deleting the solipsism video was because you yourself weren't sure that solipsism is true (and you still aren't sure ) evident by posting the video "Infinity of Gods" awakening which contradicts your deleted video . 

my Point is ..you still have a lot of work to do and more stuff to awaken to ..why do you assume you're done and can't learn even from newbies? I think that's the root cause of your arrogant style . Is thinking you've got it all figured out .

[Leo Gura]

14 minutes ago, no_name said:

You are being abusive (emotionally) towards women when you reduce their existence to mere looks, when you say that women don’t know what they want, when you say that women need to be grateful just for the fact that men are willing to spend time with them, etc. Misogyny is abusive to women. 

Well, I disagree with your characterization of me and the things I have said about women. You are cherrypicking quite a bit.

What you find "emotionally abusive" is highly subjective and relative. Basically anything I say about women that you disagree with you can call "abusive" in your mind.

I will not be explaining myself further on this matter. You may judge me as you wish. That is not my business.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Salvijus]

I think it's very hard to be teaching others constantly, telling them how to live etc. and not end up with an inflated ego.

The very process of constantly explaining things to others makes u feel superior even if your opinion is completely false lol. Just the act itself of explaining things to others creates that feeling. And Leo has been doing that for years.

To truly be able to play that role and be left with zero arrogance or sense of superiority is a mark of a truly enlightened being. It's rare. It's not easy to achieve that.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Salvijus

[zurew]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The problem with humility is that it really has to be earned, not adopted as a dogma the way spiritual folk do. Humility is an extremely advanced self-deception mechanism. Of course arrogance is also not right in the end. There has to be a genuine humility, not a facade.

I think it would be useful to think about what niche you mostly want to target with your teachings - think about what characteristics they need to have - and then you could modify your style of teaching aligned with that. 

Just as you need to assume when you make a part 3 about a certain topic that people must have watched the first two part, - the same way, -  you should assume your listeners to have certain characteristics and certain level of development already in place before you shoot a video, because otherwise the message will be torn apart between you trying to fit your message to regular self help people and trying to teach serious people as well. ( I know its tricky, because even if you want to target serious people, other people will watch it as well, so they can misinterpret things in a dangerous way - but aside from that I think you shouldn't torn your message  by trying to adapt your message to everyone)

Edited January 25, 2023 by zurew

[no_name]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Well, I disagree with your characterization of me and the things I have said about women. You are cherrypicking quite a bit.

What you find "emotionally abusive" is highly subjective and relative. Basically anything I say about women that you disagree with you can call "abusive" in your mind.

I will not be explaining myself further on this matter. You may judge me as you wish. That is not my business.

Another typical gaslighting tactic - “I am not the problem - you are”, “you misunderstood what I am saying”, “you remember things differently from what really happened (cherry-picking)”, “this is your own bias talking”

I am pretty sure every woman on this forum (and many men) has called out your misogyny, so it’s not just me and my “subjective” opinion.

[Leo Gura]

23 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

I think it's very hard to be teaching others constantly, telling them how to live etc. and not end up with an inflated ego.

That is def true.

Teaching online hordes takes its toll on you.

I have seriously thought about quitting and never teaching again. People do not understand what I teach anyway. I would be far more happy just basking in my own intelligence.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, no_name said:

Another typical gaslighting tactic

You are very sneaky in how you gaslight about gaslighting. I see you have studied up on that manuver.

That is a horribly misused word.

What we have here is merely a difference in relative perspective.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Revolutionary Think]

18 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

But isn't this a reflection on you and not him?  Think about it.  Who came up with this but you? He's just a guy on a screen.  He is made of pixels.   You are the one interpreting the words. 

No I think you're wrong. @ivankiss has a point.

[Revolutionary Think]

12 hours ago, StormLight said:

Ironically, coupling "the deepest teachings" with guilt, elitism, arrogance, and consdescening attitdue is a a recipe for disaster, and couldnt be farther from the "maturity" hes looking for

Bingo! 

[no_name]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That is def true.

Teaching online hordes takes its toll on you.

So why are you doing it online? Wouldn’t it make more sense to teach to a smaller group where you know where the people are at? If you can’t do that, can’t you make your content more inclusive of everyone since anyone can view it? 

Why are you gearing your advice on the dating section towards young/inexperienced males only? Has it not occurred to you that young women are also reading your comments and what you’re writing is extremely damaging to them? Have you not read what women are saying about this and how your attitude has been extremely damaging to them? 

Frankly, I am not writing any of this to you. I think you’re hopeless.

I am writing all this to people who have been gaslit and who are doubting their intuition and their own reality that something is horribly wrong with the way that you communicate.

Lots of people have called Leo out, he has promised to change for years, none of that ever happened. This is just who he is, this is not an act or an “effective style”, and this is not because “teaching is difficult”. When someone is showing you who they are - believe them. How many more chances are you willing to give him before you see that this is who he truly is?  

How many enlightened people have you met in life? Has it occurred to you that the only reason you consider this behaviour to be ok, is because you have nothing to compare it to? 

Edited January 25, 2023 by no_name

[Revolutionary Think]

3 hours ago, ivankiss said:

Tough love has its place, I guess, but it should not be the end all be all. It's should not be a standard. Otherwise what we will get is a bunch of rude, disrespectful, inconsiderate jerks, running around and yelling they're God, thinking their dick is the biggest. It's leading towards hell, not heaven.

Hit the nail on the head. 

[Rafael Thundercat]

8 hours ago, LastThursday said:

One of the hardest things to do is to separate the content from the delivery. Most of a lay audience, or even advanced audience will find it hard to do this. I think that's why people glom on to certain teachers, because they have a delivery that suits them, and maybe even in spite of their teachings.

It's only when you start hearing the same message from many different sources, does the delivery begin to matter less.

In my subjective experience Leo has a defensive quality to his delivery, as if he's constantly under attack and he has to protect himself. He leverages that as a kind of rhetorical device in lot of his videos. I think that defensiveness also affects other aspects of his delivery. I don't know what you think Leo? I could be way off the mark.

On this aspect I used to be annoyed when Leo in his videos answer to objections that I was not even having,but I contemplated later with myself that maybe he himself ready was faced in himself that objection so he present in the video. And in many instances the objection he brougth up and answered was exactly the one my mind was thinking. Just imagine you are talking to a camera, would you assume the mind that is listening in the other side is an enlighten, unbias mind? If the reciver of the videos was a awakened being there would be no need of videos. For me Leo could keep recording as he wish. The only thing I would ask him to do is : Keep speaking the truth radicaly.