Is Suffering metaphysically required and intertwined to Wisdom/Spiritual Growth?

[Arthogaan]

Is suffering always required part of acquiring deeper wisdom? Often we step on the path of spirituality after depression or dark night of the soul or something within that archetype. Often it is the pain of Ego itself that is the fuel for spiritual growth. Just like with the kids that have the mutation that makes them never feel pain, and they can't learn not to harm their bodies and they scrap their eyes off. 

Or maybe in ideal environment deep suffering is not required. Like Ramana Maharishi surrounded from young age by monks or some Alien world in some other galaxy filled with harmony and love that enables children to grow spiritual and wise from the get go without the need for psychological turmoil.

What are your thoughts?

[Someone here]

Yes it Is .Life is a series of endless suffering. The rich suffers because of their richness. The poor suffers because of their poverty. People having family suffers because they have a family. People without family suffers because of not having family. People with job suffers because of job. People without jobs suffers because of joblessness

Life is a series of endless problems. Ending of a problem is a birth of new problem. Such as you want to lose weight: thats a problem. You decide to go to gym and in a way you indulge yourself in more problems such as going to gym, exercising, paying gym fees . etc 

So suffering is inevitable if you want to grow properly in life . But learn to love the suffering and look at its benefits. 

[Inliytened1]

2 hours ago, Arthogaan said:

Is suffering always required part of acquiring deeper wisdom? 

It is.  Leo claims you can just pop psychedelics and wake up.  Maybe some can.  But suffering is a path. And suffering is bound to happen the more experience you log.  And it was my path... and then awakening just came spontaneously with meditation.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Inliytened1

[Breakingthewall]

It depends on what we call spirituality. I would distinguish between detaching yourself from the ego and total openness to infinity. normally you try to get rid of an uncomfortable, annoying ego. getting it is entering life, leaving the matrix. but that's just how a 3 year old lives. direct, simple, pure. a great achievement but it's not the real spirituality imo. Spirituality is the total openness to infinity. this is vocation, will, a specific personality. You need psychedelics, it's a strange path, which very few seek.

[Inliytened1]

5 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

It depends on what we call spirituality. I would distinguish between detaching yourself from the ego and total openness to infinity. normally you try to get rid of an uncomfortable, annoying ego. getting it is entering life, leaving the matrix. but that's just how a 3 year old lives. direct, simple, pure. a great achievement but it's not the real spirituality imo. Spirituality is the total openness to infinity. this is vocation, will, a specific personality. You need psychedelics, it's a strange path, which very few seek.

You don't need psychedelics.  By saying that you give the power of God to psychedelics, and God wouldn't limit itself to any one particular mechanism.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Inliytened1

[Breakingthewall]

4 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

You don't need psychedelics.  

when you do 5meo, you realize that without it it's impossible. the obstacle that you are is enormous. you can make it as thin as possible, but not disintegrate it. I suppose there will be cases in which this can occur naturally. but I doubt that many know how far the disintegration of the form can go, the opening to infinity, if they have not taken tryptamines

[Inliytened1]

6 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

when you do 5meo, you realize that without it it's impossible. the obstacle that you are is enormous. you can make it as thin as possible, but not disintegrate it. I suppose there will be cases in which this can occur naturally. but I doubt that many know how far the disintegration of the form can go, the opening to infinity, if they have not taken tryptamines

All roads to lead to Rome ?

In other words - ultimately God has to face himself.  There is no where to go.

[Breakingthewall]

5 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

All roads to lead to Rome ?

In other words - ultimately God has to face himself.  There is no where to go.

I doubt what people call god, when they say they that god is alone, that god is one... reality is total infinity, and reaching that completely without psychedelics seems impossible to me. but that is so for me, for another it will be different

Edited January 25, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Inliytened1]

1 minute ago, Breakingthewall said:

I doubt what people call god, when they say they that god alone, that god is one... reality is total infinity, and reaching that completely without psychedelics seems impossible to me. but that is so for me, for another it will be different

I would say "as long as you reached Infinity, it matters not how."

But then I immediately came to the realization that you always were Infinity, and that you need not reach for anything. 

[Vibes]

@Inliytened1 Have you meditated for how long before enlightenment?

I heard you say somewhere that you practiced Self-Inquiry.

I've been seriously practicing it for a few weeks now, and I know for a fact that I'm not practicing it wrong. Somehow I just know. But do you have some tips and clarifications that would help the process?

Edited January 25, 2023 by Vibes

[Inliytened1]

11 minutes ago, Vibes said:

@Inliytened1 Have you meditated for how long before enlightenment?

I heard you say somewhere that you practiced Self-Inquiry.

I've been seriously practicing it for a few weeks now, and I know for a fact that I'm not practicing it wrong. Somehow I just know. But do you have some tips and clarifications that would help the process?

I mediated for two weeks before awakening...perhaps less.  Tips i do have.....  I awakened while meditating to the very first few videos on enlightenment by Leo.  He will go into inquiring into what you are, in I believe the second or third episode.   That said - there is a problem.  I am giving you the answers.   God realization doesn't work like that because it's can't be ego driven.   The ego has to stumble onto it.   So keep this in mind: do you really want to know what you are metaphysically?  If so really inquire into your true nature.  Listen to the first few episodes but then there is a really good one called something like "self inquiry how to realize you are God".  I'll find the title and send it to you.  But bottom line is you have to really want to know what you are, even at the expense of your own life.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Inliytened1

[Vibes]

@Inliytened1 I do.

and thanks.

[Inliytened1]

4 minutes ago, Vibes said:

@Inliytened1 I do.

and thanks.

I believe it.   But also remember the tricks of the self.  Of the ego.  It will try to seize this.  Try being humble and curious.  Want to know to know, not as an egoic goal.  Because it will not come without a cost - and thus the ego will try to keep you from discovering it as long as possible. 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Inliytened1

[Moksha]

What is the difference between being childish and child-like? A lifetime of suffering seen clearly. The child is like an animal, able to experience life directly but still naïve. Wisdom only arises after losing yourself in the torment of the mind, and emerging on the other side. You still see clearly like a child, but the lessons of your suffering take you deeply into realizing God within.

Psychedelics are not necessary for enlightenment. They can provide poignant insights into your true nature, but when they wear off you still have to do the spiritual work of disintegrating the psyche. Psychedelics alone will not dissolve attachment to aversions and desires.

As Ram Dass put it:

I had thought of psychedelics as a spiritual path, and now he was pulling that conceptual rug out from under me. From the place of oneness where Maharaj-ji sits, psychedelics are just a fragmentary shard of a vastly deeper reality. He showed me they are a limited window, all the while reflecting back to me the deeper place of love within myself…

These medicines were known in the Kulu Valley long ago," he said, "but yogis have forgotten about them." He said psychedelics could be useful if you took them in a quiet, cold place and your soul was turned toward God. "They allow you to come into the presence of Christ, to have darshan, but you can only stay for two hours."

It was good to visit Christ, Maraj-ji said, but it was better to be Christ. "This medicine won't do that," he continued. "It's not the true samadhi, absorption in God. Love is a much stronger medicine."

[Vibes]

@Inliytened1 Yeah, I am noticing that. This last wave of suffering changed something in me. 

[Michal__]

Yeah, that's Buddhism. So a very good axis of spiritual development.

Suffering is impermanent and not self. There's subtle suffering in everything.

[Inliytened1]

4 minutes ago, Michal__ said:

Yeah, that's Buddhism. So a very good axis of spiritual development.

Suffering is impermanent and not self. There's subtle suffering in everything.

People really give Buddhism a bad image around here but it probably is the closest to Truth that there is.  Far closer than judaism or christianity.

[Michal__]

8 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

People really give Buddhism a bad image around here but it probably is the closest to Truth that there is.  Far closer than judaism or christianity.

I mean the mystical core of Christianity goes extremely deep too.

It's about finding the first cause. And they have pretty good contemplation techniques.

Some of the historical Christian mystics were likely God realized sober.

Of course the Church stuff is 99% nonsense.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Michal__

[Inliytened1]

5 minutes ago, Michal__ said:

I mean the mystical core of Christianity goes extremely deep too.

It's about finding the first cause. And they have pretty good contemplation techniques.

Some of the historical Christian mystics were likely God realized sober.

Of course the Church stuff is 99% nonsense.

Yeah but the key to God Realization is No Self.  They don't t teach that. They teach to believe in a bearded guy in the clouds.

[Michal__]

17 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Yeah but the key to God Realization is No Self.  They don't t teach that. They teach to believe in a bearded guy in the clouds.

Mainstream Buddhism beats mainstream Christianity.

Christianity teaches object / subject collapse too. Subject / object collapse is always about the three characteristics, even if the three characteristics are not talked about in the same words.

Every tradition has a magick aspect. It's just that modern Christian magick sucks. 

Buddhist magick is based on heavy concentration-vizualization techniques.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Michal__