4-HO-5Meo-DMT Martin Ball

[OBEler]

I looked on their Website. They dont write there that these mushrooms contain 5 meo. Thats just normal mushrooms, they sell this expensive.. What a scam 

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by OBEler

[Thought Art]

@Leo Gura Lol oh well I guess... hmmm, interesting. So it's a con?

So Martin is just tripping on mushrooms?

I listened to the podcast of Martin interviewing these people.... He sounded a little sketchy.

My damn assumptions

Edited April 24, 2023 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

12 minutes ago, Benton said:

I would say the main points of evidence in my experience for these mushrooms being legit is that they don't seem to have a tolerance buildup like normal mushrooms do after about 2 hours. I can redose all day fine with only slight tolerance buildup. Also, they don't look or taste like normal mushrooms which I also have. They look whiter and have a more bitter chemical flavor. Also, the effects are not as visual compared to my normal mushrooms and seem to mainly go straight to ego death and expanding consciousness. I have also combined these with normal mushrooms, and it has a much different effect than by itself at a higher dose. These are also stronger than normal mushrooms at a lower dose for me. A breakthrough dose is a little over a gram.

I don't know about these claims with them having no 5-meo but no tolerance buildup to me would suggest another chemical with the slight tolerance I notice being the psilocybin that's also in them.

Cheers

Interesting.

I simply don't know what is going on.

[Girzo]

Unless they share their tech of growing these mushrooms and some third-party or even they themselves validate existence of anything else than psilocybin in those mushrooms, then it's a dead discussion.

We can't know who here is associated with this organization.

[OBEler]

@Squeekytoy Could be all not true. Where is the evidence

I looked at their Website. If they truely want to help why are they hiding the important sections in "Our Story". There you can see Media and Interviews etc. But you need to pay because members only. 

Why dont they share their knowledge if it is true that this 5 meo shroom exist for free. Why do you need to pay such a very high price for these mushrooms. For me right now this church is just a shady Website, the runnng cost must be very low. The therapist Service could be non existing or they recrute a bunch of people who do it for free. I see not a list of persons for therapy.

Overall they are clearly profit orientated

Edited April 24, 2023 by OBEler

[Thought Art]

5 hours ago, Girzo said:

We can't know who here is associated with this organization.

Could be anyone 

[forestfog]

21 hours ago, Girzo said:

@forestfog I don't deny you having a unique experience.

I deny it comes from anything other than psilocybin.

Yes, it is placebo. Mind is a powerful force easily capable of changing experience subtly.

Provide more details on set and setting, like dosage, and what exactly you can pin point as differing from standard experience.

I have done dosages between 250 mg - 1.2 g in form of capsules, chocolate and gummies. Compared to Martins experiment on the video where he also took aprox. 1.2 g, I was expecting a stronger effect and for now don't find appealing to eventually be in a "boundless state" for longer than vaporised 5-MeO-DMT can provide. Overall under the effect, I feel functional without visual enhancements, emotional waves, active imagination etc. On lower dosages I feel serenity, distance from the narrative mind and in general in a more contemplative mind space. On higher doses the initial stages of boundary dissolution (or like the end tail of a 5-MeO session) but still with a clear mind. 

I haven't yet stacked it with other molecules, but I have heard reports that when done with classic mushrooms or LSD, the specialness of the sacrament comes clear as it is said to give the experience a whole different kind of depth. Personally this makes sense intuitively.   

I understand the appeal to "faith" more as a legal term made in the context of religious freedom.      

Edited April 24, 2023 by forestfog

[Girzo]

@Squeekytoy Basically turns out Martin rambles about it "not being placebo, because I am not susceptible to placebo, because I have a very rare extreme sleeping disorder and no treatment has worked, but something would have worked if I had been susceptible to placebo."

Like no. Martin, please stop. Your health condition is serious matter and of totally different nature. Placebo is not some magic cure-all, and people are not simply susceptible to it, or not susceptible at all.

Also, it's well-proven that the placebo effect is stronger when the effects of placebo and desired effect are close to each other, like in this example of psilocybin and new psilocybin-like substance.

Assuming it even is placebo and not just bad methodology on-hand of trippers. There's a field of qualitative methodology both in social science and medical science, with solid guidelines on how to write-down experiences and to code and analyze them. It might turn out that objectively written trip reports given to a third person to code would turn out to be more or less the same experience.

Everyday folk lack this scientific approach to psychedelics.

I have to say that even Shulgin's methodology is not a good methodology to analyze contents of psychedelics experience. It's an OK methodology to check if compound is active and not harmful, but it's not good for comparisons between substances. Plus one, two, three is not enough to find doses of different substances with similar intensity.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Girzo

[forestfog]

@Girzo Sorry, but I don't think your description of Martins position makes justice to his long essay. If one would want to summarise his position, these could be the quotes from the essay: 

"From my direct experience of bio-assaying the sacrament of CP, my answer is yes, these mushrooms are clearly different than regular psilocybin mushrooms. I am not able to prove it in any way, for as I stated, I’m not a chemist or a mycologist and cannot, with any authority, speak on such issues. From my experience, the mushrooms provided to me by CP are noticeably different in just about every way from any prior species of psilocybin mushrooms I’ve ingested ... All I can say with certainty is that in my personal experience, the mushrooms provided by CP have felt distinctly different from any other mushrooms I’ve experienced previously. Does that prove that they have psilomethoxin in them? No. Is it possible that it’s just the placebo effect? Yes. Do I think so? No."

Regarding the accusations of being a scam, Martin writes: 

"This is a question that some people have asked me about this situation. Here I’m going to definitively side with CP in that in my interactions with them, and especially getting to experience first-hand the community that is building up around CP via my participation and observations at the EntheoGenesis event, my assessment is that they are unquestioningly sincere, well-meaning, big-hearted, and genuine with all that they are doing. I do not believe that anyone involved with CP is looking to deceive or scam anyone and that they are very sincere in their beliefs about what they are providing and what they are doing. While this doesn’t address the psilomethoxin question directly, it does address their veracity as a religious and non-proft organisation that is focused on helping vets and getting them access to psychedelic therapy via their sacrament, regardless of what it chemically contains. They sincerely believe that their sacrament is what they say it is, and hope to have the scientific evidence to support this claim at some point in the future. I do not believe (my subjective opinion) that anyone involved with CP is intentionally misleading anyone for personal gain or profit. I’ve seen no evidence that they are cynically distributing a product that they know to be something other than what they are claiming it to be."

[Girzo]

@forestfog Your first quote, is exactly what I have said. No methodology, just Martin's opinion. Holds no weight, thousands of people keep to their beliefs that some psilocybe cubensis strains are more visual and some more mental.

As for Martin's judgement, he has been defending Octavio Rettig in the past.

But this is not about Martin. It's just that there's nothing new in what he said, and nothing that would negate total lack of scientific evidence. He just repeated his previous words.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Girzo

[Girzo]

Chemoenzymatic Synthesis of 5-Methylpsilocybin: A Tryptamine with Potential Psychedelic Activity | Journal of Natural Products (acs.org) https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.jnatprod.1c00087

Here's some science. So it seems to be possible to make something like 4,5-PO-MeO-DMT (in this case it has been 4,5-PO-Me-DMT, they have tested it on mice and it has activity.). BUT they started with material that already has OH group in the 4th postition, that is 5-Methylpsilocin. So they only had to go from psilocin to psilocybin. AND they did it using extracted/isolated enzyme. So it is not proven to work with living mushrooms, but there is some hope. BUT for simple 4-HO tryptamines. NOT psilomethoxin. The evidence leads to that 5 substituted tryptamines can't be hydroxylated using mushroom enzymes, as those enzymes use both the 4th and the 5th position during that process.

BUT the biggest BUT is... If this compound (psilomethoxin, 5-Methoxypsilocin, 4,5-HO-MeO-DMT) can be made using standard Anthony-Speeter procedure, then why the hell even bother with all this low-tech natural synthesis bullshit? IMO it's only some ape games to fool with authorities.

You can synth psilomethoxin directly instead of illegal 5-MeO-DMT. You don't use any illegal product when you synth a legal substance using this synthesis pathway.

Someone should do it, and it shouldn't cost a fortune.

If the church really wanted, with all the profits, they could hire a Chinese company to synth them a kilo of it next month. They probably lack connections to do so, because they are some hippies fooling around. It's not that hard, all the procedures already exist. It's lack of will imo, that they still don't have solid proven results.

One person who has worked on this paper is from Usona Institiute, an organization that analyzed the church's shrooms and published this pre-print paper from the previous page of this forum thread.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Girzo

[forestfog]

@Girzo The founders of the church have been aware of this article and have shared it on social media months ago. 

 In the interview below (56:20), Hammilton Morris said that he didn't found psilomethoxin on his first analysis on his sample, but this could be due to measuring issues as "these things can be difficult to detect especially without an analytic reference". He also said that producing psilomethoxin in a lab is very difficult and would take months to eventually make a small amount of it. 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2023 by forestfog
correcting text

[Girzo]

3 hours ago, forestfog said:

He also said that producing psilomethoxin in a lab is very difficult and would take months to eventually make a small amount of it. 

Yeah, maybe right now, or maybe he hasn't given it much thought, maybe he was thinking about making a reference sample and proving it is this. I can't quickly find a part where he says it would take months. Maybe for some US based chemist.

I don't know maybe it is hard to make 5-methoxy 4-hydroxy substituted indole. But my first instinct would be to say it isn't difficult for a Chinese chemistry company. I have checked and there are listings for it for $500 a gram. I haven't checked if anyone is actually willing to make it and sell to anyone at this price. But that would be the main needed component and the rest should be quite straightforward with little experimentation.

To prove you got the right product would still be difficult because you would need to have the reference sample, but whatever, at least you have the product in theory.

It's also all an off-topic discussion.

Let me say this again, there's no proof that these mushrooms can actually hydroxylate the 4th position of 5-MeO-DMT and the theory is leading to the conclusion that they can't because the enzyme most probably needs the 5th position to be free to add the OH group to 4th position.

3 hours ago, forestfog said:

Hammilton Morris said that he didn't found psilomethoxin on his first analysis on his sample, but this could be due to measuring issues as "these things can be difficult to detect especially without an analytic reference"

He is being nice and steel-manning their position. The fact is he hasn't found anything interesting using less sophisticated methods and the Usona institute hasn't found anything using more sophisticated methods.

Edited April 28, 2023 by Girzo

[Girzo]

On 4.05.2023 at 0:20 AM, Benton said:

The only way you can know for sure is if you test them out for yourself.

That's not the way. That's the whole point, humans are gullible and fallible.

It's a matter of what you care about.

With your statement you care about getting high, I care about truth.

[Carl-Richard]

On 22.1.2023 at 7:47 PM, OBEler said:

Maybe it's really a special personality type which does these symmetrical movements 

I've tried to do them and it's quite powerful once you get it going.

[Leo Gura]

13 hours ago, Girzo said:

That's not the way. That's the whole point, humans are gullible and fallible.

It is not so hard to test out these mushrooms for yourself and determine what's up.

[Kconsciousness]

I’ve taken it numerous times and it does feel different than psilocybin.  It feels a little bit like 5 mixed with mushrooms.  I get less visuals and it feels a little more energetic based. It’s good for clear thoughts and exercise/activity. It’s also kind of akin to the end of a 5 journey maybe 20 minutes in or so.   Went out to their event entheogenesis last month.  They were handing it out like candy and everyone was partaking.  They’re super nice guys and have a cool thing going. Their chemist explained some of it to us and how it works.  Also explained a new way of isolating the molecules that they’re working on. I would definitely suggest signing up and getting some.  It’s $55 to join the church and $300 for an oz.  It’s totally legal at this point.  So why not?  

[Kconsciousness]

I was hanging out with Martin Ball for a few hours and we talked about his experience with it.  He really enjoyed it and plans to work with it more in the future.  He’s on a break from 5 and stronger medicine.  He is only working with smaller doses of psilomethoxin and mushrooms from what he mentioned when we chatted.  

[Kconsciousness]

@Benton - what’s the highest dose you’ve taken?

[Girzo]

Why does this forum allow such blatant astroturfing?

Edited May 9, 2023 by Girzo