Should minors be allowed to transition?

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, Raze said:

The difference is that a man taking testosterone will not experience extreme changes like someone born a woman will. So if the trans person decides they want to go back to living as their birth sex they now have permanent changes that make them look like the opposite sex.

Of course trans is a much more serious issue. But also, it's done so rarely compared to roids.

Yes, deciding to transition and then changing your mind about it is a failure of the system and ideology.

What I would like to know is how many people transition and then love the result? This is the key metric for success. The fact that right-wingers are not interested in this metric tells you they are using this issue in bad faith.

If anyone here wants to dig into the studies and offer some unbiased analysis, that would be very helpful. Honestly, I have not looked into the studies so it's hard to say. A lot of studies are crap these days so the trans side cannot be taken blindly. This issue is way too politicized on both sides.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Thought Art]

I saw a video of a very stressed out 16 girl who transitioned to be a boy who was regretting her decision, and was unfortunately balding…

I have a nuanced perspective. There is no undoing it. And, it’s never really a “transition” more of a “modification”. 
 

We need to be very careful.  It’s about being balance, slow and wise. Why the rush? 
 

When it comes to young people.. I don’t get why you need physical intervention.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Thought Art

[dualnon]

There is a lot we still don't understand about gender and its relation to transgender issues. As a society, we can't even agree if gender is a social construct or not. I think a lot of the rigorous scientific work and ethical contemplation gets lost amongst all the political activism. So it's tricky.

But the fact remains that if there are trans adults, there are trans kids. 

The question then is, do trans kids benefit from adolescent hormonal intervention and do the benefits outweigh the risks? While in some cases it's clear that trans kids do benefit, in others it's clear that they don't. Take Jazz Jennings as an example, the hormones she was on prevented her genitals from developing enough for vaginoplasty.

I often find these kinds of conversations are quite pointless, because they often boil down to moral arguments, which end up being subjective and the outcomes have such varied results that its impossible to say something is true in all instances. In some sense there's a lot of similarity to the debates that surround the topic of abortion.

And similar to the abortion debate, I think there is a way to resolve these things if you look at things from a slightly elevated perspective.

The current solution to most trans problems is surgical and hormonal intervention. For a lot of trans people this is an adequate and good solution. But it doesn't provide much insight into exactly why it is a good solution, except for the fact that it seems to lower instances of gender dysphoria in trans people. But what causes dysphoria anyway? What causes someone to be trans? What is gender?

An alternative solution could be for us to look more deeply at the social structures that cause one to feel their body does not align with how they feel. To address the pain point for trans people, which more than anything is social cohesion. Right now, the major limiting factor for social cohesion amongst trans people is that their gender identity (a set of typically expected behaviours associated with their biological sex) conflicts with their socially perceived self, the biological body. 

Perhaps it would be helpful to recognise that the current solution for trans people is not an absolute solution, and is actually one that arises out of a need that is determined by the current social environment.

In countries like Iran for example, gay men are sometimes forced to transition for the sake of social cohesion, as it is culturally unacceptable to be gay, so instead they can live their lives as a woman.

So perhaps, if the social environment were to change and gender was recognised as a socially constructed set of typically expected behaviours associated with ones biological sex, and biological sex seen as something categorically distinct from gender, there might come a time where it is recognised that gender non conformity is not an issue of a person not displaying the "right" characteristics and behaviours of their sex. But instead the socially constructed boxes we put people in not being able to account for that individuals naturally expressed characteristics and behaviours.

If that time comes perhaps the instances of gender dysphoria would decrease substantially to where hormonal and surgical intervention is a very rare thing. Because the expectation of how one should be is not as rigid as "boy/Man girl/Woman" but it is accepted that one can be as they are, no matter their biology.

But this could only happen if we are willing to seriously address the concerns and experience of trans people. And also not treat it simply (and ignorantly) as a medical issue. But a response to the growing need for social integration amongst gender non conforming individuals.

Edited January 22, 2023 by dualnon
additional context.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Thought Art said:

We need to be very careful.  It’s about being balance, slow and wise. Why the rush?

There is actually good reason to rush. If you truly need to transition, doing it before adulthood is key or your results won't be good.

You just need to be damn sure you want this. It can't be some flakey group-think cultural programming crap. That is really the only concern: How much of this stuff is pure group-think?

Edited January 22, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Thought Art]

@Leo Gura Huh, I have no idea. Time will tell. I feel bad for those who end up feeling mangled and stuck in some kind of twisted limbo. 
 

Happy for those who feel successful though. 
 

If your gender seemed fluid once why wouldn’t it be fluid twice?

Edited January 22, 2023 by Thought Art

[Danioover9000]

@Leo Gura

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

There is actually good reason to rush. If you truly need to transition, doing it before adulthood is key or your results won't be good.

You just need to be damn sure you want this. It can't be some flakey group-think cultural programming crap. That is really the only concern: How much of this stuff is pure group-think?

   That I can see a problem with science and the over emphasis of quantity and measure. The most effective way for a boy or girl, to determine if they want to transition to trans is mostly from intersubjectivity, from what they are feeling in their awareness. Catch 22 here, is if we want to scale that up to a group that can offer that, they have to prioritize qualitative over quantitative, and value self reporting.

[Rafael Thundercat]

Ta-Tahhhh

 

 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Rafael Thundercat said:

Ta-Tahhhh

Cringe, but still not as cringe as the right wing.