Should minors be allowed to transition?

[Vrubel]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Dudes like Rogan take hormones even if they are illegal.

The funny thing is half these fucking right-wingers are taking hormones because they don't feel macho enough,

"right-winger" or not, a lot of (young) men are insecure about their masculinity. Most even don't know what authentic masculinity is and how to attain it. Masculinity definitely has a dangerous reckless side that must be controlled. But ironically keeping that force in check makes you even more masculine, that is what makes you "cool". 

To be honest I never heard about men taking hormones. But before dates, I do manipulate my body via a masturbation technique to gain testosterone/masculinity (and even creativity). If I didn't do that seducing/turning on women would be so much harder. 

Maybe a cool new topic. "How to get in touch with your authentic masculinity". 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Vrubel

[MuadDib]

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Are you deliberately being bad faith?

No

 

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Same could be said about plastic surgery. How did people cope with big noses back in the caveman days?

Big nose = easier, faster breathing + warm humidified air in cold + dry climate:
 

 

[Leo Gura]

12 hours ago, Devin said:

To me this makes me oppose it even more though or at least refuse to support it, I would say no to kids transitioning until I hear a better argument.

The problem is that you are making health decisions for people who you don't know, don't understand, and don't at all care about. Who are you to tell a kid how he should feel about his dick, or lack thereof?

12 hours ago, Devin said:

So do you not agree with " it is because they have a choice that they even have this problem"?

You are abusing this notion.

By that logic I could say that it's okay to make you my slave, and you won't be a problem with it, as long as I don't give you any choice.

8 hours ago, MrMog said:

@Leo Gura But isn't Joe Rogan only saying, that he does TRT (Testosterone replacement therapy) which could be argued, that it's even healthy? Because at a certain age your Testosterone drops and you can keep it high that way

I highly doubt Rogan is merely replacing his lost testosterone from youth. The dude is roiding up to look more beefy than he ever naturally was. Look at his gut.

5 hours ago, Vrubel said:

But ironically keeping that force in check makes you even more masculine, that is what makes you "cool". 

Which is exactly the right-wing criticism of what trans people are doing: trying to fit in and be more "cool".

Fitting into stereotypes is what all right-wingers love to do.

Quote

To be honest I never heard about men taking hormones.

Have you been living under a rock? Half the guys at the gym are on roids.

Edited January 21, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The problem is that you are making health decisions for people who you don't know, don't understand, and don't at all care about. Who are you to tell a kid how he should feel about his dick, or lack thereof?

You are abusing this notion.

By that logic I could say that it's okay to make you my slave, and you won't be a problem with it, as long as I don't give you any choice.

I highly doubt Rogan is merely replacing his lost testosterone from youth. The dude is roiding up to look more beefy than he ever naturally was. Look at his gut.

Which is exactly the right-wing criticism of what trans people are doing: trying to fit in and be more "cool".

Fitting into stereotypes is what all right-wingers love to do.

Have you been living under a rock? Half the guys at the gym are on roids.

If you talk to enough powerlifters, bodybuilders, strongmen competitors, fitness models, other kind of athletes, doctors who specialize in sports medicine, physiologists, physical therapists, etc. many of them will tell you that every competitive athlete or physique/fitness competitor who strives to reach the elite level ends up using some kind of performance enhancement drug.

There are also many other guys out there who look normal and don't compete in any sport or in any bodybuilding/physique/fitness competition, but are actually on gear.

Edited January 21, 2023 by Hardkill

[docs20]

10 hours ago, Vrubel said:

To be honest I never heard about men taking hormones. But before dates, I do manipulate my body via a masturbation technique to gain testosterone/masculinity (and even creativity). If I didn't do that seducing/turning on women would be so much harder. 

Maybe a cool new topic. "How to get in touch with your authentic masculinity". 

So what would be the technique? I am curious? Masturbating a few hours before the date? 


Agree on having a topic/video on the topic of accessing authentic masculinity

[Vrubel]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

12 hours ago, Vrubel said:

But ironically keeping that force in check makes you even more masculine, that is what makes you "cool". 

Which is exactly the right-wing criticism of what trans people are doing: trying to fit in and be more "cool".

Fitting into stereotypes is what all right-wingers love to do.

No, I meant keeping your masculine force in check not repressing any gay/trans urges if you have those.  
The challenge for most heterosexual (young) men (irregardless of right/left-wing) is twofold:

1. How to get in touch with your powerful authentic masculinity.
2. Once there, how to contain and express it in healthy ways.

It's more a balancing of forces, the primal vs the civilized if you will. 

Edited January 21, 2023 by Vrubel

[Vrubel]

@docs20  If you want to get more in touch with your ballsy, dominant and overall more masculine side. Before a date or going a night out, try masturbating (a little) without cumming. This will require practice, control and awareness but for me at least it's not that hard to do. Just use pics instead of vids.

Eventually, you'll reach a point where you can masturbate for a very long time without cumming and you'll still get all of that sexual energy pumped into your body. But you also don't want to overdo this. 

[Leo Gura]

Heavy weightlifting can help with that. Squats.

Although this idea that you need to be all horned up to be masculine is silly.

I literally don't need to do anything to be masculine these days. I can sit on the couch for a month and eat ice cream and watch gay porn and my masculinity will not be diminished at all.

You guys are undermining your own selves with all these rules, practices, and fake ways of being macho. It's literally just an inner game thing. When you know who you are you don't any techniques or posturing. You just be you and girls will like it. You literally don't need to do anything to impress or attract a girl. Just approach and hit on her and never again think about your looks, your dress, your manhood, your muscles, your dick, etc. Never think about it again. It's so easy. You just stop caring and be yourself.

Bottom line this: If you're trying to be more macho, you're stupid. Learn to love yourself exactly as you are. Drop all the games and fantasies.

I don't even identify as a human anymore, nevermind a man.

Your idea of being a man is pure fantasy.

If you wanna be a real man, cut the shit and realize you are God.

Edited January 21, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Vrubel]

49 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Bottom line this: If you're trying to be more macho, you're stupid. Learn to love yourself exactly as you are. Drop all the games and fantasies.

Macho no, but masculine yes. Just to explore that part of myself to be a more balanced guy. Masculinity is to a large degree developed (at least for me it is).  So I need to get that out of the way as a young man. Then I will become God(;

Sure my body manipulations are not strictly necessary but they help a lot, it's just a practical thing. 

Edited January 21, 2023 by Vrubel

[Vrubel]

I am all in for authenticity and integrating feminity but at the same time, there is also something to be appreciated about the contrast between true men and true women. It's something I admire in Eastern European societies. 

When it comes to gender dynamics I want the baseness of an Eastern European society minus the toxic masculinity/macho stuff and more tolerance towards outlying sexualities. 

Edited January 21, 2023 by Vrubel

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

When it comes to gender dynamics I want the baseness of an Eastern European society minus the toxic masculinity/macho stuff and more tolerance towards outlying sexualities.

Haha, that's a tall order.

[Intraplanetary]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

I can sit on the couch for a month and eat ice cream and watch gay porn

 fun  

[Raze]

On 1/19/2023 at 8:40 PM, Leo Gura said:

Studies show that regret rate among those who go through transition is under 5%. Let's assume it's 10% to be conservative. That's still quite low. Every major medical procedure has some regret rate.

How does your worldview accommodate that fact?

Those studies were done before the new paradigm, no one knows what the modern regret rate is

 

[Raze]

On 1/19/2023 at 9:35 PM, Leo Gura said:

And that does not happen. The right-wing loves to strawman about such things, but in reality people go through extensive and serious discussions with doctors. And 14 year olds are not getting their dicks cut off.

some minors are receiving surgeries 

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-data/

Quote

The Komodo analysis of insurance claims found 56 genital surgeries, including vaginoplasty and other procedures, among patients ages 13 to 17 with a prior gender dysphoria diagnosis from 2019 to 2021. That doesn’t include surgeries not covered by insurance.

Quote

Top surgeries

U.S. patients ages 13-17 undergoing mastectomy with a prior gender dysphoria diagnosis

2019 - 238

2020 - 256 

2021 - 282

 

 

[Raze]

On 1/20/2023 at 8:29 AM, Leo Gura said:

You can't really outlaw it. People will just find black markets for it.

Dudes like Rogan take hormones even if they are illegal.

The funny thing is half these fucking right-wingers are taking hormones because they don't feel macho enough, which are destroying their bodies. Yet they bitch about trans people and call it dangerous. How about the real danger is young boys copying Rogan with hormone use? That's 1000x more people than trans in the whole country. Why is Rogan grooming young men into dangerous drug use?

It's acceptable for men to use hormones simply because it reinforces traditional gender stereotypes. Which is really what this war is about. If some dude gets surgery to make his dick bigger, no right-winger is gonna complain about it.

The difference is that a man taking testosterone will not experience extreme changes like someone born a woman will. So if the trans person decides they want to go back to living as their birth sex they now have permanent changes that make them look like the opposite sex.

see:

 

Edited January 21, 2023 by Raze

[zurew]

When it comes to detransitioning its also useful to investigate what are the actual reasons for detransition, beacuse from the data I have seen - it mostly came from external pressure and factors, and just little from any internal change or view change.

 

Quote

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8213007/

Results: A total of 17,151 (61.9%) participants reported that they had ever pursued gender affirmation, broadly defined. Of these, 2242 (13.1%) reported a history of detransition. Of those who had detransitioned, 82.5% reported at least one external driving factor. Frequently endorsed external factors included pressure from family and societal stigma. History of detransition was associated with male sex assigned at birth, nonbinary gender identity, bisexual sexual orientation, and having a family unsupportive of one's gender identity. A total of 15.9% of respondents reported at least one internal driving factor, including fluctuations in or uncertainty regarding gender identity.

 

45 minutes ago, Raze said:

Those studies were done before the new paradigm, no one knows what the modern regret rate is

What do you mean by the "new paradigm"? . Here is a relatively new survey (I believe 2015):

Quote

https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf

In the US, a survey of nearly 28,000 people found that 8% of respondents reported some kind of detransition. Of this 8%, 62% per cent only did so temporarily due to societal, financial, or family pressures

There are other studies that could be find here, its all listed on this site:

https://www.gendergp.com/detransition-facts/

 

[Raze]

22 minutes ago, zurew said:

When it comes to detransitioning its also useful to investigate what are the actual reasons for detransition, beacuse from the data I have seen - it mostly came from external pressure and factors, and just little from any internal change or view change.

 

 

What do you mean by the "new paradigm"? . Here is a relatively new survey (I believe 2015):

There are other studies that could be find here, its all listed on this site:

https://www.gendergp.com/detransition-facts/

 

I meant when they stopped doing watchful waiting and started transitioning minors, that became standard after 2015.

[Danioover9000]

   Has anyone watched the new Matrix movies? Oh, and I just found out, but the Wachowski brothers are now sisters, congrats I guess.

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Raze said:

Those studies were done before the new paradigm, no one knows what the modern regret rate is

 

That is a fair point. We def need better studies. But will the regret rate really jump to 50%+? Unless you're willing to bet it does, it's not looking good for the anti-trans side. They need to demostrate that it does more harm than good, which I have not seen anything close to yet from the science.

Let's say the regret rate is 20%, that still not too bad.

Edited January 21, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Raze said:

Top surgeries

U.S. patients ages 13-17 undergoing mastectomy with a prior gender dysphoria diagnosis

2019 - 238

2020 - 256 

2021 - 282

These numbers are so low given the US population that is shows how blown out of all proportion this issue is.