Should minors be allowed to transition?

[Leo Gura]

18 minutes ago, Tyler Robinson said:

What would you do if your 14 year old younger brother wanted gender change? Of course you wouldn't right away tell him to just do it. 

And that does not happen. The right-wing loves to strawman about such things, but in reality people go through extensive and serious discussions with doctors. And 14 year olds are not getting their dicks cut off.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Leo Gura

[zurew]

We know from scientific data, that transitioning has a huge positive impact on their depression and suicide rates. More reserach needs to be done, but an intelligent person should go with what the data is suggesting right now, based on our current knowledge on the subject (especially when literally your life depends on it).

When you evauluate something it can't just be one side, if you criticize these methods you always have to take a look at the alternative where there is no transitioning and the suicide and depression rates are still knowingly really high.

1 hour ago, Devin said:

it seems obvious it's coming from social pressure given gender identity is social(traditional gender roles).

Even if thats the case, there still haven't been shown any method that would have remotely close the success rates to tranisitioning, when it comes to lowering depression and suicide rate among these people.

Edited January 20, 2023 by zurew

[Hardkill]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

And that does not happen. The right-wing loves to strawman about such things, but in reality people go through extensive and serious discussions with doctors. And 14 year olds are not getting their dicks cut off.

I think there have been some people who changed genders when they were toddlers.

[Leo Gura]

19 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

I think there have been some people who changed genders when they were toddlers.

That doesn't happen. These are a handful of freak of nature cases at best.

No toddler is getting hormones or surgery. Maybe they change their name from John to Sally and wear a dress.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

That doesn't happen. These are a handful of freak of nature cases at best.

Oh, is it actually illegal for minors in most countries to get gender reassignment surgery?

[MuadDib]

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That doesn't happen. These are a handful of freak of nature cases at best.

No toddler is getting hormones or surgery. Maybe they change their name from John to Sally and wear a dress.

Your biology is lacking:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Güevedoce

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, MuadDib said:

Your biology is lacking:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Güevedoce

That has nothing to do with getting hormones or surgery.

Are you deliberately being bad faith?

Edited January 20, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Danioover9000]

@Leo Gura

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That has nothing to do with getting hormones or surgery.

Are you deliberately being bad faith?

   Based on spiral stages of development, ego development, cognitive and moral development, personalities, states of consciousness, life experiences and other lines of development in different areas of life, and ideologies and belief systems indoctrinated into people, and even how their minds think and represent reality, I think most average people think this is controversial because they can't allow themselves to imagine hormonal therapy and surgery to change one's sex biology in their minds . They have an instinctive fear about imagining certain scenarios in their minds that is not so easy to forget, so cognitively they will make it a binary good or bad and put the very taboo stuff into the bad category.

[Devin]

8 hours ago, zurew said:

We know from scientific data, that transitioning has a huge positive impact on their depression and suicide rates. More reserach needs to be done, but an intelligent person should go with what the data is suggesting right now, based on our current knowledge on the subject (especially when literally your life depends on it).

When you evauluate something it can't just be one side, if you criticize these methods you always have to take a look at the alternative where there is no transitioning and the suicide and depression rates are still knowingly really high.

Even if thats the case, there still haven't been shown any method that would have remotely close the success rates to tranisitioning, when it comes to lowering depression and suicide rate among these people.

This is obviously hard for me to understand. I suppose in reality it is easier for some to physically change their body than to be accepted by society for an untraditional gender role. It seems like a punt to me from the mental health community, but hey. So long as it's not recognized as a cure but a symptom reliever I suppose I'm not so opposed, obviously a last resort and rare.

[gettoefl]

instead ask yourself this

should i be allowed to transition right now /

should i have been allowed to transition when younger

why are some trying to stop what i want done with my body

if you repress my need to transition you are just making it worse for me when i unwind your repression later in life

you are causing me to dig in my heels and follow through on my childhood ideals

maybe i would have changed my mind as a child but now you are precipitating my going this route as an adult

because you tried to impose your agenda upon me

your job as a person in authority over minors is to represent tease out articulate and support their expressed interests

are you doing that?

if you cant do that, leave me and all young people alone

[gettoefl]

please don't throw the smokescreen, sorry you are too young

refrain from reminding me of my age and tell me instead

in three years you will be the age to face this medically and until then i will support you unequivocally in your expressed wish

we are in this together and will take it step by step

nothing is in stone but i understand you are determined to transition

and i will open every door for you to explore that option between now and then

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Devin said:

I suppose in reality it is easier for some to physically change their body than to be accepted by society for an untraditional gender role.

That's not the issue.

The issue is that people are born with female brains in male bodies and vice versa. It's really not a cultural issue, it's an issue of biological mismatch.

Imagine if you were a guy accidentally born with tits. You'd want them removed to feel like a "proper" guy. No amount of cultural acceptance would fix the issue.

It's ironic that LGBTQ people like to say that gender is just something you invent. But in practice the way they act is as though gender is pure biology, they just are on the wrong side of that biology and want to be on the right side of it. But you can't just will your way to the right side of biology. Hence the hormones and surgery. If gender was truly just invented from thin air, then hormones and surgery would be totally irrelevant.

The reality is that your mind leans either masculine or feminine, and you cannot just flip that at will. Nor can you flip your body at will. Which is why trans people struggle so much. If gender could be flipped at will then no one would struggle with it, you'd just invent whatever gender you want and feel great about it. But that's not how it works because you can't just fantasize whatever you want and have it reflected in life.

You can call yourself a unicorn but that doesn't mean your own mind will buy it. Deep down you'll know you're bullshitting yourself. So you will want surgery to make you look more like a unicorn so you feel more like a unicorn and then you will buy it. You can also try to change culture to help you fool yourself that you're a unicorn. If you can pressure everyone around you to call you a unicorn, that will help you to buy your own fantasy and make it feel more real. But still, deep down you'll know you're bullshitting yourself and you'll feel depressed and anxious about it.

Basically, you can ask yourself, "What actually is my body if I stop bullshitting myself?" and "What do I wish it was if I could wave a magic wand?" And if you got two different answers, you'll be unhappy until you find some way to close that gap.

In a sense a trans person is like a person with a big ugly nose who hates himself and wants a normal nose. And no amount of other people telling him that his nose is okay will solve his problem. Nor will renaming himself "small-nose" fix his problem. He needs his actual nose to match the self-image of his nose he has in his mind. So that's what he goes for, but in practice it's not so easy to make a big ugly nose into a normal nose. So even after the surgery he will still feel bad because his nose will never truly match a normal nose. And others around him will never truly treat him as though he has a normal nose, because he doesn't.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Devin]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That's not the issue.

The issue is that people are born with female brains in male bodies and vice versa. It's really not a cultural issue, it's an issue of biological mismatch.

Imagine if you were a guy accidentally born with tits. You'd want them removed to feel like a "proper" guy. No amount of cultural acceptance would fix the issue.

It's ironic that LGBTQ people like to say that gender is just something you make up. But in practice the way they act is as though gender is pure biology, they just are on the wrong side of that biology and want to be on the right side of it. But you can't just will your way to the right side of biology. Hence the hormones and surgery. If gender was truly just made up from thin air, then hormones and surgery would be totally irrelevant.

What would "a female brain in a male body" look like? Just a feminine man that prefers traditional female roles?

The thought has never crossed my mind "what gender am I", that doesn't make sense to me, I'm just more masculine or feminine than others and have a penis. I have a penis and enjoy it, I think if I had a vagina and breasts I would love that with my current mind and biology as well, I could rock being a girl too. I really have no bearing with this concept and I've struggled thinking about it for a few years.

I am unable to imagine it being to a level to change sexes except from social pressure, I just know some people feel an extreme amount of social pressure from different things that leads to depression,....

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Devin said:

What would "a female brain in a male body" look like? Just a feminine man that prefers traditional female roles?

No, it would look like you got a dick but you feel like you should have a pussy.

Imagine if you were born with a ball sack hanging from your chin. You would hate yourself and want it removed because it doesn't feel right.

Quote

I think if I had a vagina and breasts I would love that with my current mind and biology as well, I could rock being a girl too.

That's where you're wrong. Because your hormones would be those of a man, making it impossible to rock being a girl.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Devin]

@gettoefl So what about before we had these medical capabilities? The people just didn't have a chance?

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Devin said:

@gettoefl So what about before we had these medical capabilities? The people just didn't have a chance?

Same could be said about plastic surgery. How did people cope with big noses back in the caveman days?

When you have no option to change yourself, it's actually a lot easier to accept yourself because you don't even think about it.

Giving people too much freedom leads to unhappiness. People think freedom makes them happy, but the opposite is often true.

If you had no option but to be a slave picking cotton, you would eventually accept it and find happiness in it, when you're not being whipped or hurt. But as long as you got the idea that you shouldn't be a slave, you will forever be unhappy.

The human mind's capacity for acceptance is crazy. But it has to have no other options. As soon as you give it ideas of options, then the real suffering beings.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Devin]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

No, it would look like you got a dick but you feel like you should have a pussy.

Imagine if you were born with a ball sack hanging from your chin. You would hate yourself and want it removed because it doesn't feel right.

That's where you're wrong.

?

I think you're being a little tongue and cheek but I'll ask in case you're being literal, so is it mainly about sex?

I don't see what I would hate about being a girl enough to transition, nor do I see where the thought to transition would naturally cross my mind(you cover this in your next post).

[Lyubov]

This is a topic I think all sides need to research more, we need to take medical science into play and really listen to people who identify as trans.

You have the conservatives who think this is just a disease or whatever and then you have the liberals who are fine giving an elementary school kid radical hormone therapy cause little Chris now identifies as Christina. 

I’m supportive of giving pre teens some choice but we need safe guards to make sure they aren’t misdiagnosed or their diagnosis won’t be re-contextualized at a later point where they will regret it. 
 

It’s maybe a somewhat poor comparison, but I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was little. I was medicated. I grew up with this label thinking something was wrong with me. My mom had passed away and my dad was very distant and unavailable. Of course I would have behavior problems and not be able to focus in class in school with old teachers where half don’t give a shit. These medical models we use to try to fix kids can have all sorts of flaws and not account for many factors. I limited myself for years keeping my belief system entangled with this adhd / bad student label I created for myself believe what the adults in my life told me. 

We have to make sure these choices come from the most genuine and clearest of places with cutting edge science as well. These are decisions that shouldn’t be made from liberal emotions. Some adults are making these choices from some fad liberal agenda which is based heavily on their hippy ideology and it could really cause problems for some kids who are indoctrinated into this and one day think they are a different gender cause they want some attention and don’t realize the ramifications from changing one’s identity so drastically. 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Lyubov

[Devin]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Same could be said about plastic surgery. How did people cope with big noses back in the caveman days?

When you have no option to change yourself, it's actually a lot easier to accept yourself because you don't even think about it.

Giving people too much freedom leads to unhappiness. People think freedom makes them happy, but the opposite is often true.

If you had no option but to be a slave picking cotton, you would eventually accept it and find happiness in it, when you're not being whipped or hurt. But as long as you got the idea that you shouldn't be a slave, you will forever be unhappy.

Yeah I agree, but by that logic if it's outlawed then it's no longer an option or problem.

[Devin]

I suppose once the box is opened you can't fully put it back in though.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Devin