What is the cost to manipulation and controlling people?

[UpperMaster]

This is a serious question, I don't understand the cost to manipulation and controlling people. @Leo Gura teaches that one should get rid of any manipulative behavior they might have. He says there is this huge cost to manipulating or controlling someone, and that there is a reason why low integrity people that manipulate are relatively less successful than higher integrity leaders that don't manipulate.  For the record, most successful leaders are pretty darn manipulative. 

Also how can you even live life without manipulation? Isn't Leo's videos simply just a form of manipulation? 

I mean pretty much anything is manipulation no? 

 

Someone please clarify this for me

 

 

[Leo Gura]

You will not entirely eliminate it. It's a matter of degree. There are many degrees of it.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Elton]

@Leo Gura is there a difference between influence and manipulation? 

How about the book influence?

Isn't it necessarry to manipulate people so that work is carried out in harmony ? 

How can you lead someone without manipulation? 

 

[UpperMaster]

@Leo Gura I understand that.

But aren't there some circumstances where manipulation would have a net positive impact? 

If your a leader in a country, I think it is not only ok but needed to carefully manipulate your followers to achieve a better more sustainable future. 

Even hardcore manipulation. If it results in better quality of life, what is the problem? 

For example:

If I were Nigerian, I would view the use of manipulation to gain power as justifiable if the goal is to push away foreign commercial companies like Shell and empower the local population.

Edited January 18, 2023 by UpperMaster

[Rafael Thundercat]

24 minutes ago, Elton said:

@Leo Gura is there a difference between influence and manipulation? 

How about the book influence?

Isn't it necessarry to manipulate people so that work is carried out in harmony ? 

How can you lead someone without manipulation? 

 

Give sugestions, say : I have a proposition: What if? Or you make a invitation and see if the person open up to it. If not accept that. I wanted to meet a girl but she was emotionally close to meet. Why would you want to be with someone by means of manipulation? Why would that be satisfactory? You could do like flowers do with bees, you takes care of the perfume and the polen and the bees comes to you. The flower sends a invitation and offers something that satisfy the bees needs, and by this process both get what they need. When you observe it in nature you see the pure harmony. You can project bussiness paradigms on in as you wish,  but when you observe in nature you cannot say who is seducing who.

Is the flower seducing the bee for its purpouses?  or is the bee forcing the flower to be shaped in a way that allows the bee to get polen? Who is manipulating who?  Symbiotic is nature, a participatory Universe. A infinite loop. 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Rafael Thundercat

[UnbornTao]

Consider that you even manipulate yourself. Emotions, for example, are a manipulation on your part to act a certain way.

You can also manipulate in a straightforward way and even in ways that may benefit another. I don't think manipulation has to always involve lying.

That's one aspect. Another distinction we can make is communication -- honestly sharing your experience as it is to another with the intent for it to be grasped by the other. What another does with it is up to them, not you.

We could say that you manipulate in order to get a lollipop. Sometimes this may involve breaking your integrity, hiding things, pretending and other forms of lying. Communication, on the other hand, is about your experience itself. When you communicate instead of lie, you may not get the lollipop (gaining approval, being liked, etc). What you do gain is your vitality and integrity as a complete human being, you "keep your feet on the ground", so to speak. You're more powerfully present.

[Juan]

1 hour ago, UpperMaster said:

I mean pretty much anything is manipulation no? 

I been thinking lately also about this, isn’t asking a favor a type of manipulation? I been thinking if the word manipulation has a negative connotation, is there anything like positive and negative manipulation? Still the way I work is having a integrity, whatever I do or ask, it has to help in some way the other person so it’s a win win.

If someone can correct me on this view please do.??

[UpperMaster]

@Juan I would say anything that you do change someones behavior is manipulation. So pretty much anything is manipulation. 

[Gesundheit2]

You won't be able to solve this puzzle unless you decouple morality and integrity from high consciousness and development.

It's a common belief/dogma amongst spiritual folks that high consciousness means high morality and integrity. And I'm not saying they're opposites, in fact they're nearly identical, or at least parallels. But to see that, you need to separate them first and understand why morality is necessary.

And sure, manipulation is inevitable at all levels and scales. The amount doesn't matter, cuz everything you do, whether consciously or not, even taking a breath is manipulation, so demonizing it is pointless.

A few tips, though:

Keep on doing what you're doing, but now try more consciously. And don't be neurotic about it. Be cool, relax. Try your best to navigate correctly, but don't beat yourself up when something goes wrong. Be in tune with your environment and know when to take control and when to surrender.

[UpperMaster]

@Gesundheit2 What would you define as being integrous? Telling the truth, or tell what you believe to be true?

[Leo Gura]

Good people have no desire to manipulate others while bad people use manipulation in selfish ways to exploit others.

Make the distinction of whether you seek to control others or not. It's not complicated.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Leo Gura

[UpperMaster]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Good people have no desire to manipulate others while bad people use manipulation in selfish ways to exploit others.

Make the distinction of whether you seek to control others or not. It's not complicated.

But why? What's the cost? I

I don't mean to be an asshole by repeating the question, I actually don't understand what is the "cost" to controlling others.

 

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, UpperMaster said:

But why? What's the cost? I

I don't mean to be an asshole by repeating the question, I actually don't understand what is the "cost" to controlling others.

People cannot really be controlled, so you're just gonna end up pissing them off and making them hate you. And you will just end up with nothing but stress, drama, and a big fat insecure ego.

The desire to control people comes from insecuirty, fear, and greed. So you are just doubling-down on your worst egoic instincts.

And then it blows up in your face, like with Tate. If he didn't try to control his women he would be a happy guy.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Leo Gura

[UpperMaster]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

People cannot really be controlled, so you're just gonna end up pissing them off and making them hate you. And you will just end up with nothing but stress, drama, and a big fat insecure ego.

In the past I was super honest with everyone and was easy to manipulate, ended up getting controlled by my closest friend. I trusted him. He took a lot from me at the time. He definitely was happier than I was at the end of it. Even now, probably more fulfilled, even if he is a big ego prick.

When you talk about the dangers of manipulation and control, it often resonates strongly with me because my personal experience has shown that those who manipulate and control and have large egos and come out of situations feeling fulfilled and much happier. In the end I am the one who gets fucked. 

Your right about fear, I'm scared as shit to feal that pain again. I don't even know what to do.

I keep listening to your shit for hope but then reality wakes me the fuck up again. Every time.

All around me, the honest people are sad and weak while the evil fuckers that are willing to pimp out their own girlfriends smile the most. 

 

I think we can agree that some level of manipulation as a leader is necessary, but I understand what you mean. Most times you even think to "manipulate" someone is for selfish intent, not a higher cause.

 

Anyway thanks.

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, UpperMaster said:

In the past I was super honest with everyone and was easy to manipulate, ended up getting controlled by my closest friend. I trusted him. He took a lot from me at the time. He definitely was happier than I was at the end of it. Even now, probably more fulfilled, even if he is a big ego prick.

When you talk about the dangers of manipulation and control, it often resonates strongly with me because my personal experience has shown that those who manipulate and control and have large egos and come out of situations feeling fulfilled and much happier. In the end I am the one who gets fucked. 

That's a seperate issue. That issue is one of you being too weak and allowing others to manipulate you. Of course you gotta change that. But that does not mean you have to become manipulative yourself.

As for your friend, you have no idea how much trouble he will create for himself over the years.

Manipulation cuts you off from spirituality. It takes a lot of maturity and wisdom to appreciate this point.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Leo Gura

[UpperMaster]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That's a seperate issue. That issue is one of you being too weak and allowing others to manipulate you. Of course you gotta change that. But that does not mean you have to become manipulative yourself.

As for your friend, you have no idea how much trouble he will create for himself over the years.

Manipulation cuts you off from spirituality. It takes a lot of maturity and wisdom to appreciate this point.

I really hope I can get to that point.

Do you have a video on this topic (dangers of manipulation)? If so, please tell me which one.

 

 

[Leo Gura]

I have an old video about manipulation and lying. Search those keywords. But I will make a new one soon.

[Elton]

@Leo Gura what about stage blue people who seek authority and hierarchy? They also would want to be controlled right ? 

Was your latest vedio on tate an example of a stage green not liking stage red/orange ?

Edited January 19, 2023 by Elton

[Leo Gura]

Conservatives like structure and order, but no one likes to be controlled.

[Gesundheit2]

4 hours ago, UpperMaster said:

@Gesundheit2 What would you define as being integrous? Telling the truth, or tell what you believe to be true?

It's not enough to tell the truth. There are smart and stupid ways of telling the truth. And the same applies for lying. Integrity is a highly contextual thing.