Reminder Of Why You're Here

[bloomer]

@Leo Gura

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This requires intention. This requires caring about truth. This requires observing the reactive habits of your ego-mind, which include: rationalization, projection, denial, confirmation bias, emotionality, gaslighting, blaming, judging, moral posturing, etc. This is not a place to vent or promote ideology. It is not a place to attack others. It is not a place to waste time as you avoid doing work on yourself.

It does require intention, it is very difficult for anyone who may or may not be ideological to differentiate and find that out what is and isn't ego mind when you can't discuss topics. I find debate helpful because it what useful information you can find to progress and actualise is to be found where you don't want to look and by forcing others to rationalise. This is a place for discussion. We're here to pick other peoples brains, and each others brains, not to talk to ourselves. So I invite people to challenge me on anything that they might think is my egoic, rationalising, projecting gaslighting, judgemental bullshit because that's how I get better and how other people get better. I respect policing lol it needs to be done but it's important to never over do it and destroy discussion. Which I don't think you are anyways. Best wishes to everyone ?

[Juan]

1 hour ago, Osaid said:

People were asking questions that were answered like 1000 times in your videos. 

+1

[Ulax]

1 hour ago, Osaid said:

I got the exact same impression when I first came here. People were asking questions that were answered like 1000 times in your videos. 

+2

[Lyubov]

We need better moderation tbh. Too much lunacy gets platformed here for the sake of “thinking holistically” or “confronting self bias”

example: that MLK thread

there is re-examining historic figures using a sharp, well educated comparative mindset and then there is sitting outside writing “MLK was bad, prove me wrong” like that guy from YouTube.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Lyubov

[Thought Art]

I’d like to have more conversations I find nourishing and interesting. Does every thread need to be a fight? Or, so many of them? I’d like to see fighting thread shot down maybe more earlier. 
 

I’ve also recently had a mod make personal attacks toward me, and even Leo and the community. I reported it but not sure if anything came of it. Me having a different metaphysical view is no ground for putting me down, making personal attacks, acting smarter than thou. I do think there are times when mods act in low conscious ways. However, I see a value I’m not all mods being yes men for Leo. 
 

Please continue to hold me accountable. 
Also, I realize this forum is a distraction for me. I have other things to focus on. I will be working on being a good contributor but also being here less. 

I appreciate the community and where this forum will be in years to come as we continue to grow.

More Balance

Edited January 18, 2023 by Thought Art

[flowboy]

I've found myself annoyed over the recent upsurge in "Look at this shocking thing I found elsewhere on the internet, I'm gonna post it here without any context or own input" posts.

@Leo Gura I was here 3 years ago, there were many more self-reflective, humble, gentle, carefully considering and open-to-change-their-minds people active then. What do you think happened?

 

When I joined, I was way more lost than now, but I learnt a hell of a lot about my own ego games, interacting with people here who pointed them out, and set a good example of careful introspection. This forum helped me become more mature.

I couldn't get the same benefit out of it today. I also don't need it today, so it's fine.

But I'm curious what you attribute the shift to.

Edited January 18, 2023 by flowboy

[Leo Gura]

24 minutes ago, flowboy said:

I was here 3 years ago, there were many more self-reflective, humble, gentle, carefully considering and open-to-change-their-minds people active then. What do you think happened?

You may just be high on nostalgia

This place was never particulay humble. Lol. I supposed that's my fault.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Leo Gura

[flowboy]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

You may just be high on nostalgia

This place was never particulay humble. Lol. I supposed that's my fault.

Hahaha.

I suppose I'll just try to embody more what I miss

[bloomer]

@Lyubov

17 hours ago, Lyubov said:

We need better moderation tbh. Too much lunacy gets platformed here for the sake of “thinking holistically” or “confronting self bias”

example: that MLK thread

there is re-examining historic figures using a sharp, well educated comparative mindset and then there is sitting outside writing “MLK was bad, prove me wrong” like that guy from YouTube.

I just want to defend myself here. I was replying to a Leo post in a separate thread where he mentioned MLK. I don't think the thread was unfair or unreasonable and definitely far from lunacy. I don't think MLK was bad and I extensively went into that fact in the thread. Maybe had you read or understood the post you would get that. Also I think you're metioning Steven Crowder with the "change my mind". I didn't know asking for a discussion was so divisive here. 

[Blackbeat]

Noted, hopefully am smart  and dilligent enough not to forget this Gem from OP

[Tyler Robinson]

Good. Thumbs up. 

 

[mr_engineer]

On 1/17/2023 at 7:43 PM, Leo Gura said:

This forum is a place for going meta. It's a place to scrutinize yourself and find ways to make yourself better, not to nitpick others or engage in debate. It is not about the content of what you post but the structure of your mind and why you think the way you think and do the things you do. It's about deconstructing yourself.

Here's the thing, though - if I just wanted to deconstruct myself, I could just sit alone in a room and contemplate, right?! That would do the job. 

One of the big value-points of this forum is that we get to deconstruct each other, knowingly entering the room with this attitude. This is something unique that your forum offers that almost nobody else offers, precisely because you know and talk about Spiral-Dynamics. And, the way this is achieved, correct me if I'm wrong, is through debating, right? The debates here tend to be of the highest quality I've seen. 

This is how we help each other deconstruct ourselves through this forum, so to speak. Through debating. If I'm making an ego-post, I want someone to debate me and prove me wrong! (Unlike other echo-chambers out there, who can't pull this off cuz intellectual-honesty isn't a value of theirs) Because if it's coming from ego, there's something wrong with it. The way I even know whether it's an ego-post is if it gets proven wrong! 

My point is, I'm not fully able to put my finger on how to practically embody this posting etiquette. If you could shine more light on this, that would be appreciated. Thx. 

Edited January 21, 2023 by mr_engineer

[LastThursday]

On 21/01/2023 at 3:36 PM, mr_engineer said:

My point is, I'm not fully able to put my finger on how to practically embody this posting etiquette. If you could shine more light on this, that would be appreciated.

In a debate you have two sides with different points of view. Each side then tries to convince the other that their point of view is the right one. The tendency is to fight and defend your point of view, even if the other side is being reasonable or has some good information. It tends to shut you off from learning and deconstructing. 

The opposite of debating is to be open to new ideas and possibilities. Even if you have your own point of view, you still listen to what others have to say and you have some curiosity about their point of view. You ask them questions to gather more information, and you're prepared to admit you might be wrong, or admit you don't know everything. You go away and integrate the new information, and deconstruct yourself.

The only way to improve yourself, is to change. The only way to change is to kill off bad ideas and take on new ones. You have to want change. New ideas come from other people or your own insights. You have to listen.

Edited January 23, 2023 by LastThursday

[Ulax]

@mr_engineer Perhaps instead of a debate think of it like a dialectic.

Wiki: "Dialectic, also known as the dialectical method, is a discourse between two or more people holding different points of view about a subject but wishing to establish the truth through reasoned argumentation. Dialectic resembles debate, but the concept excludes subjective elements such as emotional appeal and rhetoric".

Also, imo, if you want a tip on going meta, you can learn about deductive reasoning and experimenting with turning each argument you have or come across into a premise-premise-conclusion format.

I.e.

Premise 1: All cats are blue

Premise 2: There is a cat near me

Conclusion: There is a cat near me that must be blue (Conclusion is just what is true if both premises are true).

Then you can inspect whether each separate premise is true, and investigate what sub-premises need to be true for a premise to be true. 

Make sense to you?

Edited January 23, 2023 by Ulax
added imo

[integral]

Ive made this suggestion 100x times now. There needs to be "hints", "suggestions" or "questions" inside the comment box right there visible right before someone comments. This shapes and frames the environment we are posting in, while also incentivizing introspection before posting.

I was thinking of making a chrome extension that adds high quality questions into every comment box (on all sites). It would pick one random question and display it. Can probably expand this to a entire tool set. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by integral

[ZenSwift]

This needs to become a pinned post. 

[mr_engineer]

On 1/23/2023 at 3:20 PM, LastThursday said:

In a debate you have two sides with different points of view. Each side then tries to convince the other that their point of view is the right one. The tendency is to fight and defend your point of view, even if the other side is being reasonable or has some good information. It tends to shut you off from learning and deconstructing. 

I think it could work if both sides are being intellectually honest. 

It is true that both sides are partial. So, if both sides are intellectually honest, it is not possible for both sides to stay stuck as they are! Cuz they will have to see information that they were previously missing, which they necessarily were, because their perspectives were partial. 

A reasonable Tier-2 person will close their mind in a debate only if the other side is totally full of shit, i.e. there is no kernel of truth in what they're saying. Such a debate must heat up. This will happen if and only if one side is being intellectually dishonest. So, if I were a mod, I would moderate for intellectual honesty rather than the style of communication. 

On 1/23/2023 at 3:20 PM, LastThursday said:

The opposite of debating is to be open to new ideas and possibilities. Even if you have your own point of view, you still listen to what others have to say and you have some curiosity about their point of view. You ask them questions to gather more information, and you're prepared to admit you might be wrong, or admit you don't know everything. You go away and integrate the new information, and deconstruct yourself.

The problem with this is that you will only get information that you ask for, i.e. information that you know that you don't know. But, usually, there's important information that's subconscious, i.e. that which you don't know that you don't know. If the objective of the forum is to help us raise our level of consciousness together, wouldn't this be important? 

On 1/23/2023 at 3:20 PM, LastThursday said:

The only way to improve yourself, is to change. The only way to change is to kill off bad ideas and take on new ones. You have to want change. New ideas come from other people or your own insights. You have to listen.

I would argue that everyone who's on here wants change. You don't watch Leo's hours-long videos, which are very challenging to the ego in and of themselves and then come back here for seconds if you don't want change! Please, @Leo Gura, give us that much credit. 

Having said that, the reality is that we are influenced very heavily by a Tier-1 world around us. So, there will be people who will come in with the attitude of 'This is what I think. Change my mind', Steven Crowder style. They're essentially asking for a debate! 

I understand what you're saying and I can do this. But, I think that a lot of people simply won't be able to figure out how to meet these standards of communication because of what I'm saying here.