"Mystical Experiences and Vipassana" - can someone relate?

[theleelajoker]

Hello everybody,

this is my first post in this forum. I have read many very helpful posts of other people that is why I decided to post my own questions here.

Introduction: I have experiences with psychedelics since 2016 and started Vipassana Mediation in 2019. This year I reduced the psychedelics but increased my meditation practice, most of the time to 1h a day (only Vipassana). On the one hand, Vipassana practice helps me a lot to see things clearly (makes sense as it literally means "insight" and "to see things as they are"). But on the other hand, I am becoming super confused about my reality as well. The intention of this post is to hear your opinions and experiences so I can learn and (maybe) reduce my confusion.

Mystical experience example - Hero Journey

For instance: I know about Campell's hero journey and since a few weeks, I actually experience my reality as if I am in it. I met a wonderful woman, we are strongly connected and my experiences with her fit the description of meeting the queen goddess in Campell's Journey. Moreover, I had moments where I clearly experienced and recognized the feminine power in her but also in other women. To be honest, those were often quite humbling moments (I call them "teaching moments"). These moments happened right after I read ("coincidentally?") about the yin-yang balance and how the feminine tiger keeps the dragon's power in check so that he does not get over-confident. Well that humbling happened to me and fun note on the side: the woman I date always had a "cat-like" personality and I had called her various predatory cat nicknames even before these teaching moments.  Moreover, my 4-year old nice always calls me a dragon as we often played with a toy dragon in the past. There are much more little puzzle pieces and small details to the story and they all fit perfectly, but I think you get the meaning of what I try to describe.

These above teaching moments were right on time, because I experienced a lot of synchronicities and a lot of situations where I clearly had the feeling of "OK, I created this moment". I feel more and more how my presents actions create my future and also how it changes my past just by shifting perspective. I read about the "messiah complex" and I think I did fall prey to this, taking myself probably too important - thinking that the world evolves only around me. At the same time, those manifestations show me that I do indeed create my reality - but to what extend? Are we all going through a "Hero/Heroine" journey because this is the archetype of human experience - or is it "me writing the script" of this journey because my mind came in touch with this information, this journey idea earlier?  And then, the movie idea of being both the actor of my life and "writing the script" as screen writer of my reality - is this only because I have read "Cosmic game: study of the borders of human consciousness" by Stanislav Grov, where he describes this analogy, a few years ago? Again, am I really experiencing "truth" or just a product of my mind that was fed information by which I create and interpret my current reality?

More mystical experiences - reality shifts?

I can see myself mirrored in the outside world, in the people I meet.  For instance, since I do and talk more about vipassana, or literately ANYTHING else I suddenly meet (random) people everywhere that have done or are about to do it as well.  At the same time, they are independent beings right? So am I just connecting with people on the same vibration (law of attraction) or am I "creating" these versions of those people? As in "I shift to the parallel reality" in which those people do the this exact thing I am doing? (this idea kind of goes back to the Bashar teaching I have read).  I also believe to recognize "different versions" of me and they seem to come along with something like "test" for me. I don't know what it is - but there is something "alive" in peoples eyes when these situations happen. I clearly and definitely see something in people's eyes that is simply "different" and more alive.

Since my increased Vipassana practice, I also have the feeling of "reality shifts". For instance, I feel that if I overcome my fears and express my self truthfully, suddenly a "shift" in reality occurs. I was in a job interview and got offered a project in which I had the feeling I am not suited for. I swallowed my ego and expressed truthfully this assessment. Instead of being told "OK then it's not for you" (= my expectation and my fear) I had a strange feeling that something changed - and I got "rewarded" for my honesty with a "Oh well I know that but I still think the job fits and I would like to offer it to you". As if the person (the character?) itself in front of my fundamentally changed through my action. Situations like this happened many times over many years. Might be "just my fears and negative believe system" about myself  but there was definitely a strange feeling of a "shift" in my guts + it also happens without negative believes and fears as in the example before. As in simple conversations in which a person suddenly changed tremendously as reaction of my words / actions.

What is "real"?

Moreover, I remember "waking up" from deep meditation one day and thinking: "All information I have ever received - it's just outside information. What do I actually "know"?  Did for instance medieval times really exist? Is there a real "history" or is it all just "background ambience" in my personal experience, created by me, for me? And even then, some things in this reality must be "fixed", right? As in just because I don't believe in gravity, it still will be there tomorrow. 

And by posting this here - am I posting this to me in some way? Am I creating the person (or the version of the person) answering to this post or did and does the person already exist independently from me?

Finally, I have very strange dreams in which I "learn lessons" and wake up feeling as I made a jump in consciousness by living through this dream. Where do we actually "go to" when we dream? I mean, even typing this "awake" right now, I am dreaming now as well, right? Right?

As you can see, the amount of questions shows my confusion. I apologize for the length of the post at the same time I think I needed to express it.

If anyone can in some way relate - this would be highly appreciated! After what I have read from others so far the answers will probably be "both - you create your reality and you do not create. Your mind looks for an logical, finite answers but there is none. Stop searching for answers and just be"

Seems about right - at the same time: If there is anything you can say beyond that - would love to hear your opinion!

 

[theleelajoker]

Can someone relate?

[axiom]

On 10/01/2023 at 0:06 PM, theleelajoker said:

As you can see, the amount of questions shows my confusion

I could once have certainly related to the confusion, the anxiety, the hunger and the neuroticism. This is what seems to propel one on the seeking path in the first place. It's a double-edged sword though, because it is also precisely what keeps one dissatisfied and seeking (maybe forever).

On 10/01/2023 at 0:06 PM, theleelajoker said:

Stop searching for answers and just be. Seems about right - at the same time: If there is anything you can say beyond that - would love to hear your opinion!

There are all sorts of things that can be said beyond that, but nothing of much value.

[Moksha]

When someone asks a question like, "Am I creating the person (or the version of the person) answering to this post or did and does the person already exist independently from me?" it is important to clarify what is meant by "I". If you are referring to the person that wrote this post, of course you didn't create everyone else in the universe. Believing that is classic solipsism.

If you are referring to your ultimate nature as God/Consciousness/Brahman, you created everyone in the cosmos including the person writing your post. Then again, the same is true for the ultimate nature of every other entity. My ultimate nature is identical to yours, but our avatars are entirely different. We appear as separate waves, but are the same ocean.

[theleelajoker]

Hello Mosksha and axion,

thanks for replying. It already helps a little bit, if only that it feels like someone else can somehow relate and even took a few moments to reply. I feel like I am in a very deep emotional crisis, depressed and anxious so every little thing helps. I know it will pass. I just don't feel it yet.

[axiom]

5 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

Hello Mosksha and axion,

thanks for replying. It already helps a little bit, if only that it feels like someone else can somehow relate and even took a few moments to reply. I feel like I am in a very deep emotional crisis, depressed and anxious so every little thing helps. I know it will pass. I just don't feel it yet.

Life is much simpler than you think. It goes like this:

1. Things happen (or seem to);

2. The self (which is entirely illusory) then tries to claim the apparent happening as its own. It believes it either brought it about, or that it somehow owns it. Of course, this is completely untrue because the self does not actually exist.

Depression and anxiety happen, seemingly. They are not happening to a "you". There is no you.

To the extent you think you are suffering, you might want to seek suitable help (therapy, medicines, whatever).

[Moksha]

7 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

It already helps a little bit, if only that it feels like someone else can somehow relate and even took a few moments to reply. I feel like I am in a very deep emotional crisis, depressed and anxious so every little thing helps. I know it will pass. I just don't feel it yet.

Suffering can serve as either a blessing or a curse. It is a sword pointed at your heart, and you have the choice of how to respond. Most grasp the blade and desperately try to shove it away, without understanding that resistance only bloodies them more. Few realize that fighting against the present moment is self-defeating, and instead choose to allow the energy of the experience to pass through them. They are cleansed and deepened in the process. Seeing clearly brings them closer to their true self.

Suffering is the ultimate solvent. If you allow it, suffering dissolves your attachments. It teaches you not to identify with the phenomenal world, as if it has the ability to give you meaning beyond who you actually are. Life can be enjoyed, and even celebrated, but the moment you cling to it or resist it, you will return to the school of suffering for another semester.

[Breakingthewall]

9 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

Hello Mosksha and axion,

thanks for replying. It already helps a little bit, if only that it feels like someone else can somehow relate and even took a few moments to reply. I feel like I am in a very deep emotional crisis, depressed and anxious so every little thing helps. I know it will pass. I just don't feel it yet.

The human suffering is the key to enlightenment. If your suffering is intense and your vital impulse is also intense, you will seek the end of suffering like an animal searches for food. soon you will realize that with psychological strategies it is impossible to escape from it. whatever you do, the suffering is there. It is the dissonance between what should be and what is. this dissonance is anxiety, suffering. You can never equalize what should be with what is because what is ultimately is your mortality and what should be is above all survival. they are antagonistic. there is no way out of the trap. there is only one: the rupture of the shell that is your temporary human appearance and the real opening to the infinite that you really are. how to do this? Will is the key. Absolute, radical, unstoppable will.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[theleelajoker]

I just processing your replies. Thanks for that. I think something is starting to click.

1. Things happen (or seem to);

2. The self (which is entirely illusory) then tries to claim the apparent happening as its own. It believes it either brought it about, or that it somehow owns it. Of course, this is completely untrue because the self does not actually exist

I understand "claim the happening"  as I am building up a story how it happens, the causalities, what I did etc. ? Is that what people talk about in "do nothing" meditation?

Quote

Suffering is the ultimate solvent. If you allow it, suffering dissolves your attachments

I think I am starting to get what you say. I often had the feeling, that I bring myself to this point of anxiety etc just that my suffering becomes so strong, that I have no choice but to let go. I had this experience once during my vipassana retreat.

Quote

If your suffering is intense and your vital impulse is also intense, you will seek the end of suffering like an animal searches for food. soon you will realize that with psychological strategies it is impossible to escape from it. whatever you do, the suffering is there. It is the dissonance between what should be and what is

This makes so much sense.

What I do not understand is your point about will. I thought "will" = mental activity and thus effort and creating disbalance. Like the analogy with waves in a pond.

 

All of you - thanks a lot for your comments. I already feel much calmer. Facing some of my biggest fears helped. Just feeling things instead  of being afraid to feel.  And then it is not as bad I thought it would be

[Breakingthewall]

54 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

What I do not understand is your point about will. I thought "will" = mental activity and thus effort and creating disbalance. Like the analogy with waves in a pond.

 

If i were you, i would be extremely skeptical about vipassana preaching. That of the calm mind like a pond is pure repression (again imo). It is not about calming the mind, it is about understanding the chains that bind you in the ego's nightmare. you are being limited by a circular software that works continuously and you are not going to turn it off by force. you have to unravel its secret, it's like a game. Meditation is useful, it is a tool that gives you understanding. but full opening to infinity also requires triptamine, in my humble opinion. When I say that the will must be total, it is that once you are aware that you are trapped in a trap, your will to get out of it must be unbreakable. 24 h x 7 watching, pushing, breaking. a prisoner with a spoon digging. only that exists. jail and the will to break.

[Rahra]

My Hero’s journey began with my birth, seeing and being attacked by dark and evil entities.

Trapping and destroying possibly one of the mightiests demons in existence was the highest point in my journey, in what was one of the highest non-induced experiences in mankind’s history.

[Moksha]

6 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

I think I am starting to get what you say. I often had the feeling, that I bring myself to this point of anxiety etc just that my suffering becomes so strong, that I have no choice but to let go.

Suffering serves the deepest purpose. It is the inferno which drives you away from the mind and back to yourself. Psychedelics and meditation may provide poignant insights into your nature, but only suffering gives you the will to actualize those insights. Spiritual curiosity alone is not enough.

[theleelajoker]

17 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

If i were you, i would be extremely skeptical about vipassana preaching. That of the calm mind like a pond is pure repression (again imo). It is not about calming the mind, it is about understanding the chains that bind you in the ego's nightmare. you are being limited by a circular software that works continuously and you are not going to turn it off by force. you have to unravel its secret, it's like a game. Meditation is useful, it is a tool that gives you understanding. but full opening to infinity also requires triptamine, in my humble opinion. When I say that the will must be total, it is that once you are aware that you are trapped in a trap, your will to get out of it must be unbreakable. 24 h x 7 watching, pushing, breaking. a prisoner with a spoon digging. only that exists. jail and the will to break.

What you are saying does resonate. I still see value in the Vipassana approach, but there was some imbalance in my way of interpreting and doing it. I believe I got too deep into the "calm your mind" attitude (repression) and too little into the expression of what I am thinking / feeling. The consequence was trying to do something with force, just as you said. And the result was repression and the result of that was feeling shitty, to be blunt. 

I very often had the feeling of experiencing life as a game. Can you please elaborate a bit more about what you wrote here "you have to unravel its secret, it's like a game." For instance, how you go about playing this game? Triptamine is not an option right now. I do psychedelics but currently its more about integration of my previous experience (mushrooms) before going on another trip. 

On a side note: The "trap" you talk about reminds me of the Samadhi documentaries. IMO absolutely worth watching.

 

Quote

Suffering serves the deepest purpose. It is the inferno which drives you away from the mind and back to yourself. Psychedelics and meditation may provide poignant insights into your nature, but only suffering gives you the will to actualize those insights. Spiritual curiosity alone is not enough.

This feels so true right now. I tried to avoid suffering - or what I called "unnecessary suffering".  In my mind, there was a logic of some suffering that is necessary to learn and some suffering that I can simply avoid. I thought "hey just do the right things (meditation, sports, be present as much as possible, active social life etc) then I can eliminate "unnecessary suffering" and only necessary suffering remains.

I see now that there seems to be a flaw in this logic. 1) How do I know which one is necessary, which is not? 2) Whatever it maybe, I resist suffering. I resist what is. Which does not sound like a good plan at all

 

 

[Moksha]

10 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

I see now that there seems to be a flaw in this logic. 1) How do I know which one is necessary, which is not? 2) Whatever it maybe, I resist suffering. I resist what is.

Suffering is only necessary until it serves its purpose?Instead of resisting it, allow its energy to flow through you freely. It will burn away your attachments, and show you the secret of yourself.

Bonfire of Me

Suffering strikes the spark of my undoing,
Catching in the kindling of thought,
Consuming self to soot, intensifying,
Crumbling the fortress that I wrought,
Purifying fire ever rising,
Burning through the ropes of my desire,
Devouring the karma of my making,
Soul wind stirring these flames higher,
Scattering the ashes of my ego,
No illusion left, only the fire.

[Breakingthewall]

14 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

very often had the feeling of experiencing life as a game. Can you please elaborate a bit more about what you wrote here "you have to unravel its secret, it's like a game

 we have to understand reality (so you), at all levels. It is a non-conceptual understanding, beyond the mind.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[theleelajoker]

13 hours ago, Moksha said:

Suffering is only necessary until it serves its purpose?Instead of resisting it, allow its energy to flow through you freely. It will burn away your attachments, and show you the secret of yourself.

 

Thank you for the poem. And the suffering & purpose - yes, I understand this more and more on a experiential level. Intellectually I "knew" that but can't really "know" without really experiencing it (I like the term Gnosis for that)

I just (re-)discovered this: Few days ago I had a big fight with my girlfriend and was super scared to the idea of breaking up, loosing all we build, the idea of a family etc. I was so attached to this but at some point I was able let go of and said "OK, then it's not meant to be". Crying a lot in this process of burning away these attachments and fears. And also showing these emotions in front of others (showing vulnerability is/was another fear of mine).

To my own surprise, I realized letting me feel this pain and expressing it helped me a lot. I was calm and (mostly) in peace with things next time we talked.  When I basically had given up the hope to make this work, at some point we both were just able to let go. Almost as if we pressed a magical button labeled "let go". I was able to talk with her openly, including my fears. We made up and I feel the connection stronger than ever before.

And although I can't say or know for sure, I have the strong feeling that she had a very similar, a basically mirrored process as I did. Only in a more intuitive (female?) way instead of the logical, rational way I am approaching this (e.g. like discussing things like "suffering", "mind" and "reality" with people like you in this forum )

[Moksha]

11 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

To my own surprise, I realized letting me feel this pain and expressing it helped me a lot. I was calm and (mostly) in peace with things next time we talked.  When I basically had given up the hope to make this work, at some point we both were just able to let go. Almost as if we pressed a magical button labeled "let go". I was able to talk with her openly, including my fears. We made up and I feel the connection stronger than ever before.

That's great to hear. Emotional honesty is the foundation of any healthy relationship. You grieved at the potential loss of your relationship, and in the process arrived at a place of surrender that allowed you to reconcile. I'm glad that it proved helpful for you and your girlfriend.

Here is the litmus test. Would you have remained at peace if the attachment to your relationship was permanently dissolved? Is the surrender still there, or have you reattached now that you are back together? Will you feel the same way if you break up again?

There will always be attachments, as long as conditions are placed on our experience. It is only when you learn to let go of every expectation, and unconditionally embrace whatever is, that you live fully in the flow state of yourself. That is when you truly move beyond suffering. It doesn't mean dishonoring experience. To the contrary, it frees you to honor life fully. The difference is that you no longer identify with it, or demand the impossible of it.

Unconditional uncertainty is incredibly frightening to the ego. It will fight you every step of the way, because it knows that its existence depends on the lie that enduring happiness is possible outside of yourself.

That realization is the true gift of suffering. When you have suffered enough, you see that clinging to thoughts and feelings has never delivered what was promised. No matter how hard you try to earn it, the trophy is inevitably transient. This wisdom will give you the strength to truly surrender. You will release your white-knuckled grip on the edge of the egoic mind, and tumble through the void without knowing anything, except that are no longer willing to listen to the false promises of the mind.

The light that you discover after passing through the void is ineffably brilliant, and beyond anything you could have hoped for in the phenomenal world.

[theleelajoker]

Thank you Moskha, again your words do resonate with me. A lot of points you make that seem just right for me in this moment. I feel that some things in my mental structure and approach to life are shifting through the recent experiences and the conversation here.

I also feel that if I am not careful, conscious and determined then I might fall back to the old pattern. Just like you described in the litmus test about re-attaching.  And I also have the feeling that here all the dots connect: meditation to recognize if and what kind of expectations I build up with my conscious or unconscious mind / thoughts, "the absolute will" that Breakingthewall talked about to get free of the trap while not repressing or judging anything and finally the total game of transient trophies, false promises and false happiness outside of myself.

Quote

It doesn't mean dishonoring experience. To the contrary, it frees you to honor life fully. The difference is that you no longer identify with it, or demand the impossible of it.

I look forward to this challenge:  "using" my mind and my intellect to still do the things in life that I feel like doing (professional goals, family, etc.) but at the same time not building or clinging to any expectation. I like "do not demand the impossible of it" because that is what I (subconsciously) did all the time.

And it is so damn funny because it is so simple, so obvious, you can read it everywhere and I even talk about it myself. But I really needed the suffering, the desperation of the last weeks to feel and integrate this truth a bit deeper.

Finally I would like to share that I did feel a bit of the light yesterday,  walking in the park. Being free of expectation as much as I could all the heaviness of the last weeks was gone, disappeared into nothing. Instead there was a lightness in both my steps and in my mind. I was just happy and content with what is. Did not even want to do anything, just being.

When I woke up today, I felt a bit more heaviness again. But I did not judge or loose my calm - instead I am thinking: "And so the game begins again" This time, however, I feel much better prepared to play.  @axiom@Breakingthewall@Moksha you all contributed towards this feeling - thank you.

[Moksha]

11 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

Finally I would like to share that I did feel a bit of the light yesterday,  walking in the park. Being free of expectation as much as I could all the heaviness of the last weeks was gone, disappeared into nothing. Instead there was a lightness in both my steps and in my mind. I was just happy and content with what is. Did not even want to do anything, just being.

When I woke up today, I felt a bit more heaviness again. But I did not judge or loose my calm - instead I am thinking: "And so the game begins again" This time, however, I feel much better prepared to play.

All it takes is the dawning of self-realization, which you have seen, to begin the journey out of suffering. It starts with a surface understanding that you are not your thoughts, and that your thoughts will never bring you enduring happiness. The universe (aka you) will test your sincerity each step along the way, and drive the realization deeper, until the dregs are drunk. Then, you will unconditionally be free.

Meanwhile, enjoy the dance ??

[StillnessSpeaks]

@Moksha what is the correlation between being free of thoughts(letting go) or just being and allowing thoughts  to be there .. is aligning thoughts with feelings still an act of the ego?. Most of the time when I just feel the bliss of being present , creative or positive thoughts pop up after a while. Should I let them go too or play them out. 
I have the sense that , especially in the traditional spirituality, thought in general is seen as bad.