Why does God allow such extreme degrees of suffering?

[Hanna Luna]

I want to briefly illustrate just how extreme the degree of suffering can get:

- physical torture (a psycho shoving a drill down your pupil, ripping your nails off, crushing every bone, burning you slowly) and doing this while keeping you very much awake with the use of adrenaline and other means. 
- mental/psychological torture of all kinds 

Just typing the above has made me too drained to go further into detail on the degree to which one could experience suffering.

For further context, I bring this up because I often think about my fear as a woman and as a human being-- of being raped, of getting kidnapped, of being physically tortured (add to that having low pain tolerance). Recently, I've been having nightmares where I literally experienced a crazy man pulling my nails off my fingers. I remember it hurting terribly, but the memory of just how bad the pain was faded incredibly fast. Additionally, this dream was one of the most vivid ones I've ever experienced and it's what caused these fears of mine to really surface to the degree that I've been feeling down recently.

I also realize that the only way to feel better as it pertains to the idea of this happening to me, others, or the fact that source/God/universe allows these acts to be played out, on even the most innocent human beings on the planet (babies/children) is to see more good in it than I see the bad.

I really look forward to seeing what you all have to say about this. I also openly welcome advice, if you have any to give. 

[Leo Gura]

God is just an Infinite Mind. Which means, it is every possible thing that a mind can imagine. As it turns out there are no limits to what a mind can imagine, which is exactly why your dreams of torture happen. Your mind is just exploring the full potential of what a Mind is.

Don't think of it as God allowing or disallowing. God is simply Mind. And Mind has no limits to what it can dream. And it's all dreams. The function of Mind is to accept itself in its totality.

As it turns out, you can't dream anything unless you are able to dream everything. So here you are. If Mind couldn't imagine suffering, it would be a very weak mind and you could not be alive.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Breakingthewall]

This is pure speculation, but it seems to me that all human suffering is a forge, the way that from the coarse coal, from the raw material of the animal that only lives for survival, little by little the diamond of the selfless spirit emerges, open to infinity. god made flesh.

everything takes an evolutionary process. nothing is by chance. Even the smallest note is orchestrated. animal suffering is very different, the end of survival and evolution to adapt to the environment. the human goes another way. 

the gradual deformation of that basic embryonic being to reach the complete opening throughout millions of lives. We are here to do our part, not to have fun. We are soldiers, so let's give it our all and do our part, and seems that it use to include suffering 

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Someone here]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

God is just an Infinite Mind. Which means, it is every possible thing that a mind can imagine. As it turns out there are no limits to what a mind can imagine, which is exactly why your dreams of torture happen. Your mind is just exploring the full potential of what a Mind is.

Don't think of it as God allowing or disallowing. God is simply Mind. And Mind has no limits to what it can dream.

Leo, does that mean that somewhere sometime in this eternity we are stuck in ,there will be an indescribable suffering and pain ? Because I can think of these possibilities that she mentioned..imagine being burned alive for 10,000 years without taking a nanosecond off or without dying ...is that an inevitable part of Absolutel Infinity ? if the answer is yes then this destroys my whole life .how can i be a sane functional person if I already knew that ?

[Michael Jackson]

2 minutes ago, Someone here said:

sometime in this eternity we are stuck in ,there will be an indescribable suffering and pain ?

@Someone here Not sometime, already, now.

The entire humanity is crawling through increadible oceans of pain. We just don't realize how painful being human is, because all we know is this pain.

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Leo, does that mean that somewhere sometime in this eternity we are stuck in ,there will be an indescribable suffering and pain ?

Not necessarily from your human perspective.

Quote

Because I can think of these possibilities that she mentioned..imagine being burned alive for 10,000 years without taking a nanosecond off or without dying ...is that an inevitable part of Absolutel Infinity ?

God's Mind certainly includes that dream. It just doesn't mean your ego will experience it.

God can dream up infinite degrees of Hell. That's no fairytale.

Quote

if the answer is yes then this destroys my whole life .how can i be a sane functional person if I already knew that ?

Don't forget that your ego would completely die very soon into that kind of consciousness, so it wouldn't be as bad as you might think. The thing in you that suffers is the ego. God proper doesn't have an ego so it doesn't suffer like a human does. God might enjoy a trip to Hell just for the interesting view.

God is death. Once you completely surrender, you are invicible. But that surrender will kill you. Once you are truly dead, you can explore endless consciousness without a care in the world. You can fly to Hell and take a dip n a sea of lava. A human cannot do this because it has a form to maintain. God proper has no form, so no problem. Once you lose your form completely, you are free and nothing can harm you, because you are already dead.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Someone here]

14 minutes ago, Michael Jackson said:

@Someone here Not sometime, already, now.

The entire humanity is crawling through increadible oceans of pain. We just don't realize how painful being human is, because all we know is this pain.

What kind of pain ?what exactly are you referring to? 

[Someone here]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Not necessarily from your human perspective.

But I'm God cosplaying as a human ..this "human perspective " is the only perspective there is . So if I'm God and I'm the only one that exists..then I will definitely have to face my infinitude and taste every single goddam thing ever ...who else is there but me to experience that ?

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

God's Mind certainly includes that dream. It just doesn't mean your ego will experience it.

God can dream up infinite degrees of Hell. That's no fairytale.

Exactly. So are you making a distinction between actual infinity and potential infinity ? Like..there is probably infinite potential to God's capability of dreaming ..but the question is will every single possibility be actualized? 

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Don't forget that your ego would completely die very soon into that kind of consciousness, so it wouldn't be as bad as you might think. The thing in you that suffers is the ego. God proper doesn't have an ego so it doesn't suffer like a human does. God might enjoy a trip to Hell just for the interesting view.

God is death. Once you completely surrender, you are invicible. But that surrender will kill you. Once you are truly dead, you can explore endless consciousness without a care in the world. You can fly to Hell and take a dip n a sea of lava. A human cannot do this because it has a form to maintain. God proper has no form, so no problem. Once you lose your form completely, you are free and nothing can harm you, because you are already dead.

Thanks .that brings up some clarity. 

[Michael Jackson]

14 minutes ago, Someone here said:

What kind of pain ?what exactly are you referring to? 

Imagine you where being tortured for all your life. All you would know in that scenario would be torture. Therefore you wouldn't recognize torture as torture, it would just be "normal existence" for you.

The Buddha said it. Life is suffering. It was not an exaggeration and it was not just some random idea. It is true. Life as a human creature is torture, but since all we know is that torture we don't realize the pain of it all.

[Leo Gura]

21 minutes ago, Someone here said:

But I'm God cosplaying as a human ..this "human perspective " is the only perspective there is . So if I'm God and I'm the only one that exists..then I will definitely have to face my infinitude and taste every single goddam thing ever ...who else is there but me to experience that ?

Yes, but the you you are refering to is the ego, not God proper. The ego will not be around to experience every single goddam thing.

Quote

Exactly. So are you making a distinction between actual infinity and potential infinity ? Like..there is probably infinite potential to God's capability of dreaming ..but the question is will every single possibility be actualized? 

It will not be actualize for the ego/human self. The part of you that worries about this, that fears this, is the ego. No ego, no problem.

Hell seems bad to the ego. Hell is not bad for God proper. Think of it this way, does a coffee table care if you throw it into a lake of lava? Why not? God is like the coffee table.

Of course the ego is terrified of Infinity. That's the only thing keeping you human.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Breakingthewall]

28 minutes ago, Someone here said:

What kind of pain ?what exactly are you referring to? 

of the billions of humans who have ever existed, all have suffered once they have reached adulthood and their egos have developed. It would be said that the ego is a suffering machine. animals suffer little. nothing to do with the refined torture of the human ego. there is only one way to stop suffering: detachment. but as a human you are attached by nature. it is a kind of challenge, a game. if you study a little human history, you will find terrible amounts of suffering. torture, genocide, disease. human being is jesus on the cross. millions of different crosses, each one his own, with the aim of transcending attachment. each a blow in the forge. Almost not a human is happy. what they call happiness is misery.

[Michael Jackson]

@Breakingthewall Thanks for such a clear explanation.

[Vibes]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It will not be actualize for the ego/human self. The part of you that worries about this, that fears this, is the ego. No ego, no problem.

Hell seems bad to the ego. Hell is not bad for God proper. Think of it this way, does a coffee table care if you throw it into a lake of lava? Why not? God is like the coffee table.

Of course the ego is terrified of Infinity. That's the only thing keeping you human.

@Leo Gura Like in some dreams where I am just aware, nothing can touch me, nothing can scare me. Isn't?

But since every possibility is inside Infinity, doesn't that mean I will live every possible life as an ego? Being some form?

[Sincerity]

43 minutes ago, Someone here said:

if the answer is yes then this destroys my whole life .

?? Omg I can't.

Bro, You can't just believe Leo's words to the point that it's gonna destroy your life. As of now this stuff is literally only theory for You, just that, and You have no way of knowing whether it's right (and me neither). Focus on actuality, don't let your life be fucking ruined by what a talking head says on an internet forum.

You know @Leo Gura You should really start to put these poison pills in your teachings. Maybe it's for the better.

[Byun Sean]

1 hour ago, Hanna Luna said:

I want to briefly illustrate just how extreme the degree of suffering can get:

- physical torture (a psycho shoving a drill down your pupil, ripping your nails off, crushing every bone, burning you slowly) and doing this while keeping you very much awake with the use of adrenaline and other means. 
- mental/psychological torture of all kinds 

Just typing the above has made me too drained to go further into detail on the degree to which one could experience suffering.

For further context, I bring this up because I often think about my fear as a woman and as a human being-- of being raped, of getting kidnapped, of being physically tortured (add to that having low pain tolerance). Recently, I've been having nightmares where I literally experienced a crazy man pulling my nails off my fingers. I remember it hurting terribly, but the memory of just how bad the pain was faded incredibly fast. Additionally, this dream was one of the most vivid ones I've ever experienced and it's what caused these fears of mine to really surface to the degree that I've been feeling down recently.

I also realize that the only way to feel better as it pertains to the idea of this happening to me, others, or the fact that source/God/universe allows these acts to be played out, on even the most innocent human beings on the planet (babies/children) is to see more good in it than I see the bad.

I really look forward to seeing what you all have to say about this. I also openly welcome advice, if you have any to give. 

Yeah thats the risk of being alive. Being a woman means you also have an even greater biological sense of this danger physically. 

 

I recommend doing some internal balancing exercises like yoga, meditation, or working out so that you can consciously navigate your life without your fear compulsively draining or guiding you in wrong directions while still protecting yourself responsibly.

On top of that, make sure you are involved with relationships with others and have proper support systems externally because those fears are real and valid for you. Your system is giving you that information because there is some truth to it in your reality. This stuff does happen to people.

 

Having that balance within and without should at least put your mind at ease a bit.

 

As for the existential point of view, God sees life like a video game since it doesn't have any bias.

In order to experience life as a physical human though, you need to be biased toward maintaining a certain physical and psychological structure which you presently call: your life.

God wants to experience every single possibility because its like baskin robins 31 ice cream flavors. you dont just want to try 1. You want to try them all lol.

 

Pain and suffering is a way for our bodies to let us know which experiences are good for staying healthy and which experiences are not.

This is why our sense of pain and its possibility is essential for staying alive long enough to experience life.

If you didn't feel pain and suffering you would probably already be dead.

 

This is why it is reported that people who go deep enough into spiritual work start to even transcend physical discomfort and pain. Because spirituality essentially means breaking the boundaries of your individuality or collective compulsive instincts of self preservation or what we might call the ego.

 

 

 

 

[Leo Gura]

22 minutes ago, Vibes said:

@Leo Gura 

But since every possibility is inside Infinity, doesn't that mean I will live every possible life as an ego? Being some form?

But you won't remember it.

Think of it this way, you were already tortured in another life before this one. But that has no bearing on this life.

The problem is that by mentally imagining all this suffering you create suffering for yourself when you don't have to be suffering now.

Suffering will definitely happen to you, the key is to not worry about it much. Enjoy the good times while they last. They won't last forever.

Also, stop filling your mind with toxic images which then loop around in endless nightmares. As you purify your mind your nightmares will stop.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Sincerity]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But you won't remember it.

Think of it this way, you were already tortured in another life before this one. But that has no bearing on this life.

Hey Leo, I'm curious what's your take on this. Does God remember all "previous" lives and experiences? Does omniscience entail "the past" even though the now is all there is? Or maybe everything is just infinite possibilities in God's Mind and the concept of "past" or "experienced" doesn't even hold?

I've been contemplating this lately but haven't done psychedelics with this question in mind or anything so I have no clue.

[Richard Purdy]

@Leo Gura How do you purify your mind? I keep imagining worrisome scenarios and it seems to come to life.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Richard Purdy

[Leo Gura]

13 minutes ago, Sincerity said:

Hey Leo, I'm curious what's your take on this. Does God remember all "previous" lives and experiences? Does omniscience entail "the past" even though the now is all there is? Or maybe everything is just infinite possibilities in God's Mind and the concept of "past" or "experienced" doesn't even hold?

At the highest levels God is beyond remembering past lives. God is an infinite ocean where all lives, things, and times melt togther into a single soup of undifferentiation. 

Think of the universe before the Big Bang. It was just oneness that contained everything. You can say all possible lives are in that soup, but they are all blended together.

9 minutes ago, Richard Purdy said:

@Leo Gura How do you purify your mind? I keep imagining worrisome scenarios and it seems to come to life. I'm a slave to my mind.

Sit silently in meditation and do nothing, relax your mind and be happy. Stop consuming garbage media. You also have to face your fears.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Sincerity]

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

At the highest levels God is beyond remembering past lives. God is an infinite ocean where all lives, things, and times melt togther into a single soup of undifferentiation. 

Think of the universe before the Big Bang. It was just oneness that contained everything. You can say all possible lives are in that soup, but they are all blended together.

Ok, muchas gracias!

God is Soup. I love it haha