I want 7-8 hours of Deep Sleep

[Harikrishnan]

Lately I am finding it hard to sleep straight for 7-8 hrs, I wake up at 6-7 hr mark. And I am also worried about quality of my sleep, I have dark under eye circles, my eyes look tired and all. Any tips or supplements to improve my sleep will be greatly appreciated.

[Lyubov]

I’m kinda in the same boat. I would say more so it has to do with my schedule. I could definitely go to bed earlier. I’ll go to bed between 4-6am. Probably a good idea to get this to around 1am and wake up around 9-10am. If you are staying up insanely late this is a good place to start. If you have any emotions that are keeping you from falling asleep, look into why you are creating them in the first place. If this isn’t something to do with your beliefs or emotions then diet and cutting out caffeine would be the third thing I’d look into. Also, is there any environmental factors? I’ll wake up when my girlfriend is getting up for work and because it’s sunny already sometimes I’ll be wide awake at that point having only gotten like 5 hours cause she wakes up early. 

[UDT]

You mean sleeping deeply or the deep sleep phase?

Deep sleep phase is just the REM cycle of sleep, youre lucky to get 2 hour in 9 hour sleep 
 

[The0Self]

I’m sort of out of the loop on this kind of research now but from what I remember back in my narcolepsy diagnosis days was that normal sleep cycles go like this: Periodically cycling between light, REM, and deep sleep, entering the first REM cycle 10-60 minutes in (narcoleptics entering it immediately upon sleep, hence the hallucinations, and also cataplexy since REM paralyzes muscles so you don’t act out your dreams with your physical sleeping body thus waking it up), not entering the first deep sleep cycle until just under ~4hrs into sleep, that (deep sleep) cycle ending just ~10-15min later at about 4 hours flat — which is why ~4 hours is the absolute minimum anyone can live on; and the sleep dose that one will generally gravitate toward when meditating 100% of waking hours on retreat— the first deep sleep cycle, deep sleep being an essential part of sleep, doesn’t occur until just before the 4 hour mark — after which, the sleeper cycles between light, REM, and deep in increasingly long cycles.

And while all that was correct, this one sentence here may not be 100% correct, but I definitely learned it somehow: Eventually, over the course of the night, once the individual’s sleep needs have been exceeded, if sleep continues, it’s pretty much just REM and light (stage 2, I believe) sleep, and no more deep sleep.

Some people do best with biphasic sleep. Sleeping 4+ hours for one phase, and 2-5 hours for the other — possibly with just a short break of 1-4 hours between the two daily sleep phases; it doesn’t have to be two equally spaced sleep blocks like 1-5am and 1-5pm… It can be something like this: sleep 7-11pm, wake and get work done, read, meditate, or whatever from 11pm until a little before 1 AM (to wind down and then actually be asleep at 1 AM, not just in bed), then sleep 1-4:30am for 7.5 total hours (probably optimal for most people), or 1-6am for 9 total hours (only ever necessary if doing intense exercise), or 1-3am for 6 total hours, still making sure to be asleep between 1 AM and 3 AM (more on that later) — that trial allows for testing whether biphasic sleep is right for you, and it has all the sleep hours in dark hours, which is best for sleep quality. I would certainly surmise that the benefits of biphasic sleep are probably negated, at least to some degree, when one of the phases is done in the middle of daylight hours…

The most important time to be asleep, due to hormones and circadian rhythm, is 1-3AM. The time you go to sleep can vary depending on sleep needs — 4-9hr/day for nearly everyone, but many if not most people do best on about 7.5hrs assuming no high intensity exercise, but with high intensity exercise the sleep needs for optimal health and fitness are usually about 1 additional hour per day —

But the time you wake up should be the same every day to minimize daytime sleepiness. The variable that you change should be bed time, not wake time. You want to train your body to rise at the same time daily — it seems to help with energy.

You want to time it such that you are always asleep by 1AM, though just getting to sleep well before 3AM, while suboptimal, is miles better than getting to sleep after 3, since the hours of 1-3 AM are the highest bang-for-your-buck sleep hours. For instance, wake up at 8 AM daily, and go to sleep at 12:30-12:50 if sleep needs are not very high, but if doing high volume exercise etc you may want to go to sleep as early as 11 PM; there is rarely if ever any benefit to exceeding 9 hours in one day.

A poor night’s rest will affect the next 3 days, so your sleep debt is primarily based upon your past 3 nights sleep. This is why athletes often notice that a poor nights sleep doesn’t affect the next day any more than it affects the day after the next, and also that if you get, say, 8-9 hours for 3 days in a row, getting one day of only 4-5 hours might not affect you that negatively, as long as it’s just one day….

But even ONE night of sleeping significantly less than 4 hours can cause an accumulation the following day of some degree of (possibly permanent) damage and fatigue, because you literally completely skipped getting ANY deep sleep, when coming up ahead is an entire day’s worth of brain and body function…

Certainly try to be asleep by 1 AM if you want to maximize your total effective sleep quality.

Edited January 10, 2023 by The0Self

[Asayake]

Short answer: Increase sugar/carb intake by a lot and you'll be sleeping like a baby and have more energy during the day. This is not about micronutrients/supplements most of the time, you're just undercarbed and dehydrated and that's what's giving you the black circles under your eyes. And you likely have high cortisol levels which is ruining your sleep. Eat a big bowl of rice & potatoes before you go to bed, as much as you can tolerate, and you'll sleep like a baby. And drink 3 glasses of water each morning to have better hydration during the day.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Asayake

[Waves]

@The0Self Have you found any strategies to maintain a (healthy) regular sleep schedule (e.g. waking up at 8am) while going out on the weekends (and assuming one is training somewhat hard and wants to avoid hurting recovery too much)? For example, If you got home at 3am, would you still wake up at 8am or try to get at least 7.5h?

I realize it's a matter of compromize and goals, and that if you'd be optimizing for training recovery you wouldn't want to stay out late, but I'm curious what your experience is.

[T_i_m]

Have you seen Huberman's episodes on sleep? They  really helped me with my sleep. He might have the answers for you. Episodes 2 to 5 plus 31 to be exact.

[Eternal Unity]

Sleep lab. Do you have trouble falling asleep, as well?

Edited January 10, 2023 by Eternal Unity
Additional question

[The0Self]

On 1/10/2023 at 3:32 PM, Waves said:

@The0Self Have you found any strategies to maintain a (healthy) regular sleep schedule (e.g. waking up at 8am) while going out on the weekends (and assuming one is training somewhat hard and wants to avoid hurting recovery too much)? For example, If you got home at 3am, would you still wake up at 8am or try to get at least 7.5h?

I realize it's a matter of compromize and goals, and that if you'd be optimizing for training recovery you wouldn't want to stay out late, but I'm curious what your experience is.

Lately (past couple weeks; not usual) I wake up at 10a and go to sleep around 2a every day (not optimal) simply because just as you say, yes I do go out late on weekends and was confronted by the exact conundrum you describe. For the past 3+ months, I was going to sleep at 12-1a and waking at 8a five days a week, but then on Friday and Saturday night I’d sleep from 3am to 10am — Really caused a lot of fatigue, so now I’m not going out quite as late, and I’m waking at same time daily… Focusing primarily on weight training probably for another month or two or until habituation. Changing it to sleeping 1-9a now though. Definitely very notably less tired in general when I wake up at the same time every single day though, so even 2-10a works fine — but it’s probably better being asleep from 1-3 rather than just 2-3 of the 1-3am sweet spot. I might also try limiting blue light + not looking at screens after 8 PM, if that’ll even be possible ? 

 

[Tyler Robinson]

Try orange juice. 

[flowboy]

On 08/01/2023 at 6:49 PM, Harikrishnan said:

Lately I am finding it hard to sleep straight for 7-8 hrs, I wake up at 6-7 hr mark. And I am also worried about quality of my sleep, I have dark under eye circles, my eyes look tired and all. Any tips or supplements to improve my sleep will be greatly appreciated.

Lately means that you didn't have this problem before.

So: your life has become more stressful.

What changed?

[Harikrishnan]

3 hours ago, flowboy said:

Lately means that you didn't have this problem before.

So: your life has become more stressful.

What changed?

Not really I used to sleep max 7 even when I was kid. Now it has reduced to 5 to 6. Stress is not an issue. Going to gym is only new activity now. Other things are quite same. Also meditate regularly 

[jedimasters]

@Harikrishnan

1.Drinking Caffeine? 

2.Wind-Down Routine 

3.Sleep Hygiene 

Are you drinking any coffee or any other forms of caffeine? 

Cut it out or switch to green tea and no caffeine later than 2 pm and you'll be lights out I'm sure!

And I would greatly reccommend doing some Sauna or some Yoga or other relaxation techniques before bed. This can help your body not be so freaking tense while you sleep. 

Here are some tips for Sleep Hygiene:

 

[flowboy]

2 hours ago, Harikrishnan said:

Not really I used to sleep max 7 even when I was kid. Now it has reduced to 5 to 6. Stress is not an issue. Going to gym is only new activity now. Other things are quite same. Also meditate regularly 

What time do you go to the gym?

Going to the gym within 4 hours before sleeping can disrupt sleep.

 

Also: any nightmares?

[hoodrow trillson]

Sleeping in your 20s is different than sleeping in your 30s.  Same when you go into your 40s.  The human body will change it's sleep quality/schedule either for the better or for the worst.  It's just part of life, the older you get the less 'efficient' you are.

Lower caffeine intake, exercise to become 'tired', eat healthy foods and don't use your smartphone at night right before bed.  Use the Night Shift mode on your smartphone so it changes the screen to a more yellow tint.  Get rid of any bright white bulbs in your bedroom if you have any--go with 2500K-3000K hue'd bulbs.

[Waves]

@The0Self Great, thank you for sharing your findings  I've also been waking up at the same time every day lately and I'm starting to notice a difference, but since it's rather early (8am), and since I need 9h, it does get in the way of other plans, such as going out late. I'm using this period to regenerate anyways, so it's good for now. Good luck with the blue light haha

[Harikrishnan]

22 hours ago, flowboy said:

What time do you go to the gym?

Going to the gym within 4 hours before sleeping can disrupt sleep.

 

Also: any nightmares?

This might be the thing, my workout completes at 9pm. And I go to bed at 11.

No nightmares never had that.

[Michael569]

I found my major sleep disruptors are lack of physical activity during the day and lack of daylight. 

The days when I am home in front of computer all the time, my sleep is the worst. On the opposite, days when we go for a hike, even for couple hours, are the best sleep days of all regardless of any other factors. 

Try getting in some outdoor workout early in the day, if your environment  allows for it. I've noticed that makes a difference. 

Edited January 14, 2023 by Michael569

[flowboy]

On 13/01/2023 at 6:34 PM, Harikrishnan said:

This might be the thing, my workout completes at 9pm. And I go to bed at 11.

No nightmares never had that.

That's easy then, the workouts are the change that's new, and they are closer to bedtime than is recommended for sleep.

I would try to work out earlier in the day and see if that helps you sleep through the night!

[Eternal Unity]

@Tyler Robinson I'll co make me a cup, Thx