Clear critical analysis of 'woke' culture

[Rafael Thundercat]

2 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

   Oh, and never thought that it's possible to have female pimps snare young teens into being 'influencers'. Crazy it's not illegal yet.

Hahahaha I thought the same when I saw it. And the amazing is how everything can be rationalized. The sneakyness of rationalization is amazing. 

[Danioover9000]

@Rafael Thundercat

1 minute ago, Rafael Thundercat said:

I instaled TikTok on purpouse to become aware of the hype and in the experience I forced myself to consume it remembering how my 14 years old mentality was an checking how it would affect me.  I think degrading attention is the exact term to describe the effects. 

But apparently millons love that, and millions love their Wokist ideias and some Love Actualized content. Furtunately there is variety in the world, otherwise we would not  have even this Forum. 

 

   I agree, millions of rats, mice and vermin love the mad piper's music, to be bothered to check if they're drowning in misery, thank god there's so much variety in rodents, and rabbits.  Also, that woman is a classic scammer, a pimp artist that uses COVID as the greatest obfuscation of responsibility. I'm willing to bet every crime she commits, will blame it on COVID.

[Leo Gura]

11 hours ago, Joel3102 said:

Why do you think the American right has gone so crazy recently? The Bush era conservatives seem so reasonable in comparison, to the point where many of them are straight up Democrats now.

Don't whitewash Bush conservatives. They were also exceptionally stupid. The country was just in a different place. America is slowly losing its power as the world globalizes and American government refuses to evolve and make wise choices.

It's a downwad spiral. As stupid people run the government it becomes less and less effective, until things are so broken that mobs of people get riled up and act in even more stupid ways, putting ever dumber leaders into government. The errors of Bush naturally lead to someone like Trump.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

@mr_engineer Dude, you just keep digging yourself deeper into a hole with each post and rationalization.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Danioover9000]

@mr_engineer

2 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

@Consept It is very important that we wake up to our epistemic-power and take ownership of what we believe. Honestly, that's the only solution to the problems you're mentioning. 

On all of the issues you mentioned, gangs, terrorism, etc. These people are not consciously thinking about what they're doing and the consequences of it. When they do and they see crying families as a result of it, they leave! 

This ideology that 'young people are susceptible to bad influences' puts them in a disempowered position relative to their own minds. Your industry may benefit from believing thus, cuz now, you have an enemy to fight out there. But, I'd much rather you focus on helping the individuals build a decent life. Through good role-modelling. And this starts by them owning their minds. 

   What good role modelling program do you suggest for these young minds to aspire to, away from this disempowered position of thinking themsleves as susceptible to manipulations, into one where they are wise enough to feel they can own their position and go away from a gas lighting/grooming situation?

[Hardkill]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Don't whitewash Bush conservatives. They were also exceptionally stupid. The country was just in a different place. America is slowly losing its power as the world globalizes and American government refuses to evolve and make wise choices.

It's a downwad spiral. As stupid people run the government it becomes less and less effective, until things are so broken that mobs of people get riled up and act in even more stupid ways, putting ever dumber leaders into government. The errors of Bush naturally lead to someone like Trump.

14 hours ago, Joel3102 said:

Why do you think the American right has gone so crazy recently? The Bush era conservatives seem so reasonable in comparison, to the point where many of them are straight up Democrats now.

I actually asked him this question on another thread about 2 years ago:

 

However, I now can tell you why in my new thread: 

 

 

[mr_engineer]

2 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@mr_engineer

   What good role modelling program do you suggest for these young minds to aspire to, away from this disempowered position of thinking themsleves as susceptible to manipulations, into one where they are wise enough to feel they can own their position and go away from a gas lighting/grooming situation?

It starts with them owning their lives and being held accountable for getting influenced by the 'bad influences'. You cannot brute-force 'good influences' onto them and expect this to happen, you cannot brow-beat them into doing better. You have to first understand what's appealing to them, you have to create a better solution for them and then you have to communicate to them in a way that wakes them up to the reality that they're choosing to be influenced and they can make a different choice, a better choice. And, it has to look better to their eyes. 

This is one of the primary reasons the West fails to install democracy in Afghanistan and Syria. Instead of getting local support and making sense of the ground-level situation there, they carpet-bomb the hell out of the place first and then put billions into installing their own infrastructure there! Doesn't work in the end. 

[mr_engineer]

9 hours ago, KH2 said:

No, the problem is homophobia. Of course, we all know that hatred of any kind, is always caused by something deeper, and perhaps personal and unique to each specific individual. However, that doesn't matter.

Do you think it's easier to put immidiate action into solving economic instability, or is it easier to limit legitimate hate speech on the internet?

In the short-term, it's easier to limit hate-speech. But, it's a cope. Not the solution. 

And, don't give me this crap that the point of this 'performance of wokeness' is actually for the betterment of society. As if you give a damn. It's all about virtue-signalling anyways. Let's not kid ourselves here. 

The actual solution is to stop making economic-inequality such a huge political trigger for people. And, the way you do that is that all people in charge of education start to enable students to follow their passion. When we have more people doing that, they're too busy doing their own thing that makes them happy, so they don't have time to care about status or 'disrespect from the upper-class' or things like that. Then, politicians can't radicalize them. Focus on empowering people, not on taking advantage of their perceived victimhood due to what happened in history.

And don't rely on government to do absolutely everything for you. Get your ass up and do something for society yourself, if you care that much. 

Edited January 9, 2023 by mr_engineer

[Leo Gura]

It is in fact the function of government to suppress ideas which would destroy government or harm masses of people. That's always been true for all governments. Only a child does not understand this. A child does not appreciate the power of ideas and words. The wrong set of ideas and words would end human civilization. That's how this works.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Leo Gura

[mr_engineer]

25 minutes ago, KH2 said:

It's not a cope, it is one of the solutions. In reality and in general, you need to do everything it takes to solve any problem - be it a societal one, or personal one. If you're struggling from social anxiety, to actually FULLY ERASE the problem, you can't JUST go out, and you can't JUST meditate, and you can't JUST go to therapy, etc. you need to do all of these things, and more. Again, simplicity just doesn't fly this day and age, because you're trying to solve complex problems.

Erasing words from a computer-screen does nothing except silence those who wrote it and make those who missed it more curious about it, look for it elsewhere and not trust the person in favor of censoring it. It also makes people very suspicious of you, that you're trying to hide something from them. It's very, very counter-productive. 

25 minutes ago, KH2 said:

Actually, you are the one that's coping, because you're trying so hard to go against censorship, you are clinging so hard onto your views. You're not willing to entertain the possibility that maybe, censorship has it's place and time.

I'm willing to entertain that censorship has a time and a place. By all means, censor people who make threats. 

What I'm not for, is inventing scapegoats and censoring people just for the heck of it. Cancelling people pre-emptively, because you don't like their style, because they remind you of someone who did something bad. Or, because you don't like their politics. This is classic mob-mentality. 

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It is in fact the function of government to suppress ideas which would destroy government or harm masses of people. That's always been true for all governments. Only a child does not understand this.

The function of the government is to suppress ideas which would destroy government. Not ideas that would harm masses of people! In fact, they are quite willing to harm masses of people if it benefits them. (For example, the Iraq-war) That's the reality of politicians. These are really dirty and corrupt people who will do absolutely anything for power. Speaking the woke language does not make them an exception at all. For example, BLM-riots, lockdowns destroying businesses, coercion into injecting a vaccine that was developed oddly fast, etc. 

Edited January 9, 2023 by mr_engineer

[mr_engineer]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

A child does not appreciate the power of ideas and words. The wrong set of ideas and words would end human civilization. That's how this works.

For example?! 

[Gesundheit2]

29 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It is in fact the function of government to suppress ideas which would destroy government or harm masses of people.

It depends on how corrupt the government is, which typically is an indicator that reflects how corrupt its people are on average.

What you're saying is true in an ideal world where governments care about both themselves and their people. But the world isn't ideal, it's deeply corrupt. And woke culture is definitely not any less corrupt, although it can look so for some, and therefore be more deceiving.

[Leo Gura]

24 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

What you're saying is true in an ideal world where governments care about both themselves and their people. But the world isn't ideal, it's deeply corrupt.

Actually, in less developed and more corrupt countries what I said is even more relevant and true. The less developed a country is the more it needs to control dangerous and destablizing ideas because the institutions are weak and easily subverted by a handful of extremists.

The US government can allow so much free speech relative to the rest of the world because its deep state is so secure. But even so, very dangerous ideas float around freely and could harm thousands of people. The issue isn't merely the security of the government, it's even moreso about defending people from harm, because masses of harmed people get pissed off and kick you out of office. US politicians have a duty to defend the masses from excessive harm and exploitation, if only to get reelected. Harmed people will quickly blame you for not defending them. Which is why someone like Tate, Alex Jones, and Kanye are cancelled. If YouTube allowed these bullies and bigots to stay on their platform eventually YouTube itself would get the blame and lose lots of business. It's not just politicians who are responsible for defending the weak, it's also corporations and platforms.

If Walmart allows gangs to rove their stores and beat customers up, Walmart will go out of business. And Disneyland cannot allow Nazis in full uniform into their park. Freedom is irrelevant because what people truly care about is safety and comfort. You do not want to take your kids to a park full of Nazis. That isn't "wokeness", that's survival 101. Businesses are forced to create happy, friendly spaces because customers do not like violence, hate, and misery.

If your local restuarant was filled with posters encouraging the sex trafficking of women and tax evasion, you would quickly switch restuarants. This is not a bug, this is a feature.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Gesundheit2]

@Leo Gura I agree with what you're saying, but it's a strawman. I'm not saying more corrupt governments control the flow of ideas less, nor the opposite. The degree of control can vary depending on context, yet that degree is rarely determined by the collective interest, even though that's what is claimed, and what should ideally be the case.

Indeed, a democracy generally gives the collective more power and influence over the government than a dictatorship does, but that's not how corruption is measured. Development is not an antonym for corruption. It's just not the correct metric. The correct metric for corruption is hypocrisy/integrity, and how much of each you possess. Do you really mean what you say? Or are you just saying stuff to deceive me for some personal gain?

Consider that a dictator could have higher integrity than a democratically elected president. That dictator might exercise a high level of control over his people because they're idiots and he knows better than them. That doesn't make him a corrupt leader, in fact just the opposite. What would make him corrupt would be doing the exact same thing, but this time for his own personal gain in the name of collective interest, cuz that would break the social contract without technically breaking it. It would look like looking after the people's interests, but it would be merely a show that has positive side effects, which is what's happening today and I'm pointing at, regardless of government.

On the other hand, a democratically elected president who is corrupt could use free speech to gain votes, distract everyone from the real issues, deceive for some corporate money, etc. while claiming that he's only about freedom and democracy. Weaponizing democracy for personal gain is what would make him corrupt, not democracy itself. Similar to a dictator who would weaponize his absolute authority for personal gain. Personal gain vs. collective interest is the crucial factor here. It is what determines how corrupt a leader/politician is.

That said, in a democracy like America, it's absolutely stupid to give up one's authority for the government. Rather, the government should always feel like they're walking on eggshells with the collective, because the collective is allowed that much power. When the collective gives up their authority to the government, that's when it becomes corrupt. And the more, the worse. Preserving the government should never be the ultimate goal, and collective interest should never be a side effect. The collective comes before the government, the government is just a made up tool for the actual collective. But that's an ideal world, and unfortunately, reality is the opposite.

[mr_engineer]

@Leo Gura Good points. Made me reconsider my positions.

What I'm gathering from you is that the panic and unsafety these 'negative elements' create in society makes it so at the leadership-positions, indecision becomes the most unforgivable. Even moreso than corruption, criminality and low integrity. (This explains the whole Trump-phenomenon, doesn't it?!) Because of which, they just lash out at the perceived enemy. And, this 'enemy' is the 'enemy' of their group whose votes they want. 

This is a recipe for a world in which the most low-consciousness, fearful and psychopathic people rise to the top of it and govern it. Because they're going to be the most willing to work in patterns and not question anything, they're going to be the most fearful when it comes to questioning anything. They're going to be the most over-zealous people believing in their political ideology out of their entire political block. Which is the opposite of what should happen. What should happen, is that the leader is the most measured and rational, so that they're able to handle the radicals on their own side. 

What we truly need is an education-system that focuses less on teaching theory (which makes a wrong epistemic assumption that 'the map is the territory', and which is the reason for the scientific-establishment getting lost in their elaborate maps, according to my research) and that focuses on helping students face fear. This will show people how to own their minds, how to act rationally. And this will reduce the stigma around indecision. 

Edited January 9, 2023 by mr_engineer

[Danioover9000]

@Leo Gura

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Actually, in less developed and more corrupt countries what I said is even more relevant and true. The less developed a country is the more it needs to control dangerous and destablizing ideas because the institutions are weak and easily subverted by a handful of extremists.

The US government can allow so much free speech relative to the rest of the world because its deep state is so secure. But even so, very dangerous ideas float around freely and could harm thousands of people. The issue isn't merely the security of the government, it's even moreso about defending people from harm, because masses of harmed people get pissed off and kick you out of office. US politicians have a duty to defend the masses from excessive harm and exploitation, if only to get reelected. Harmed people will quickly blame you for not defending them. Which is why someone like Tate, Alex Jones, and Kanye are cancelled. If YouTube allowed these bullies and bigots to stay on their platform eventually YouTube itself would get the blame and lose lots of business. It's not just politicians who are responsible for defending the weak, it's also corporations and platforms.

If Walmart allows gangs to rove their stores and beat customers up, Walmart will go out of business. And Disneyland cannot allow Nazis in full uniform into their park. Freedom is irrelevant because what people truly care about is safety and comfort. You do not want to take your kids to a park full of Nazis. That isn't "wokeness", that's survival 101. Businesses are forced to create happy, friendly spaces because customers do not like violence, hate, and misery.

If your local restuarant was filled with posters encouraging the sex trafficking of women and tax evasion, you would quickly switch restuarants. This is not a bug, this is a feature.

   After enforcing these changes though. Nice post though.

[Danioover9000]

   Although the Nazis are evil, I'd argue the bigger evils, the ones in the ancient world, and the one in the Pacific wars, both the Roman Empire and the Japanese empire were far worse, especially Japan and how the emperor allowed a group of scientists to experiment on prisoners and civilians during the Pacific war:

   In the case of Rome, while there are over factors involved over time, lead poisoning is definitely the contributing factor here. Truly fascinating.

[Hardkill]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Actually, in less developed and more corrupt countries what I said is even more relevant and true. The less developed a country is the more it needs to control dangerous and destablizing ideas because the institutions are weak and easily subverted by a handful of extremists.

The US government can allow so much free speech relative to the rest of the world because its deep state is so secure. But even so, very dangerous ideas float around freely and could harm thousands of people. The issue isn't merely the security of the government, it's even moreso about defending people from harm, because masses of harmed people get pissed off and kick you out of office. US politicians have a duty to defend the masses from excessive harm and exploitation, if only to get reelected. Harmed people will quickly blame you for not defending them. Which is why someone like Tate, Alex Jones, and Kanye are cancelled. If YouTube allowed these bullies and bigots to stay on their platform eventually YouTube itself would get the blame and lose lots of business. It's not just politicians who are responsible for defending the weak, it's also corporations and platforms.

If Walmart allows gangs to rove their stores and beat customers up, Walmart will go out of business. And Disneyland cannot allow Nazis in full uniform into their park. Freedom is irrelevant because what people truly care about is safety and comfort. You do not want to take your kids to a park full of Nazis. That isn't "wokeness", that's survival 101. Businesses are forced to create happy, friendly spaces because customers do not like violence, hate, and misery.

If your local restuarant was filled with posters encouraging the sex trafficking of women and tax evasion, you would quickly switch restuarants. This is not a bug, this is a feature.

That's why every successful business, particularly every big corporation, always has its own team of lawyers constantly advising and discussing with their bosses the legal implications of everything their businesses do. 

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

In a developed country if you blatantly allow your customers to be harmed you will be sued out of existence. This is also a feature not a bug. It is a key mechanism for creating a safe and pleasant society.

Just today I read of a new lawsuit against Facebook, TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube by the Seattle Public School system for "exploiting the neurophysiology of the child brain".

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/01/schools-sue-social-networks-claim-they-exploit-neurophysiology-of-kids-brains/

Edited January 9, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Rafael Thundercat]

57 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

In a developed country if you blatantly allow your customers to be harmed you will be sued out of existence. This is also a feature not a bug. It is a key mechanism for creating a safe and pleasant society.

Just today I read of a new lawsuit against Facebook, TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube by the Seattle Public School system for "exploiting the neurophysiology of the child brain".

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/01/schools-sue-social-networks-claim-they-exploit-neurophysiology-of-kids-brains/

I currently have a niece that is having difficulties due TikTok and had tried suicide. Is not just TikTok of course, family issues and the hormonal changes of teenage stage.