Clear critical analysis of 'woke' culture

[Victor van Rijn]

 

[Gesundheit2]

Surprisingly good video!

Somebody seems to have been following Actualized recently.

[Ulax]

2 hours ago, Victor van Rijn said:

 

@Victor van Rijn I liked the in-out group stuff. Captures stage green imo.

Otherwise, I found it uncharitable towards the 'woke' movement and also relatively superficial. Ironically, she is being quite black and white about her rejection of the movement imo.

Two more things:

Firstly, she is a wealthy white women. So i'm not surprised that she says she likes former variants of the movement but not so much this one (At least that is my interpretation of it). Previous feminist movements worked in quite a similar way, its just they favoured wealthy white women to the ignorance of the interests of other classes and races of women. (See the differences between second wave feminism and later intersectional feminism). So, her interests are not as served by this new woke movement, which seeks to counter this favouritism of her demographic. Therefore, i can understand the possibility that her lack of affection for the movement, in its current form, is born out of this change.

Secondly, I can't help but think this video is related to her recent cult debacle. She probably lost quite a lot of her fanbase because of it, and it now looking to expand the reach of her content. This type of video will work to pull in a more conservative leaning audience into her content and serve to refill her viewer base. 

Edited January 7, 2023 by Ulax

[Leo Gura]

As cringe as woke can be, it's still far better those people who haven't even reached "woke". Like MAGA and Red Pill.

Obviously "woke" never meant spiritual awake.

The funny thing is that most people in the world have a lot of work to do just to reach "woke".

It's also funny that carrying about inequality is all the sudden demonized as "woke", when really it should be the default position of any human.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Leo Gura

[aurum]

@Victor van Rijn

This may be one of Teal’s worst videos. Her political takes and takes on social issues are not great in general.

First off, it is not a deeply contrarian position to be going after woke culture. Being “anti-woke” is already incredibly popular in right wing circles, and even with a sizeable amount of the left. No one likes wokeness.

Second, she is way overblowing the dangers of woke culture. It’s not a balanced critique. And in doing so, she is likely to push some of her less politically savvy followers further right.

Edited January 8, 2023 by aurum

[Majed]

@Leo Gura at which stage of ego development is red pill ? 

and what you are saying is accurate however swan's audience is at least around green and so this video is similar in essence to your video on when does the left go too far. basically moving people to a more nuanced non ideological tier 2 viewpoint. 

[aurum]

6 hours ago, Ulax said:

Secondly, I can't help but think this video is related to her recent cult debacle. She probably lost quite a lot of her fanbase because of it, and it now looking to expand the reach of her content. This type of video will work to pull in a more conservative leaning audience into her content and serve to refill her viewer base

I agree that the cult debacle has likely influenced her, but I don’t think she’s doing it just to refill her fan base. I think she generally has gone through a lot of criticism as a public figure. And that has skewed her perspective.

2 hours ago, Majed said:

what you are saying is accurate however swan's audience is at least around green and so this video is similar in essence to your video on when does the left go too far. basically moving people to a more nuanced non ideological tier 2 viewpoint. 

This video is not a good example of multi-perspectival tier 2. Or at least it’s not a healthy example of it. Too biased and missing the big picture.

Healthy tier 2 would look more like Jonathan Haidt’s or Ken Wilber’s work.

[Gesundheit2]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

As cringe as woke can be, it's still far better those people who haven't even reached "woke". Like MAGA and Red Pill.

It's literally the same people in both cases. The only difference between woke and right wing is upbringing and possibly socio-economic status, but their levels of consciousness are roughly the same. They're fundamentally just conforming their social circle and going overboard with that to enhance their survival.

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The funny thing is that most people in the world have a lot of work to do just to reach "woke".

That's just a leftist bias. It has nothing to do with truth.

[Tyler Robinson]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

carrying

Carrying? Caring? 

[Gesundheit2]

17 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

That's just a leftist bias. It has nothing to do with truth.

Aka "woke".

[Leo Gura]

All of Teal's points are valid critiques of stage Green. But I feel like she's not acknowledging that this is just how stage Green is. What else do you expect? Nobody gives a fuck about real awakening (not even Teal's audience I would suggest). Of course Green has limits, and of course group-think, conformity, and intolerance are some of the biggest downsides of Green. But our society is nowhere developed or mature enough for Tier 2. Wilber makes this same mistake of talking about Green as though we should already be beyond it, when obviously most of the world still has yet to experience Green. Half of America demonizes Green. This is a fact you cannot deny. So there cannot be Yellow any time soon.

And also it is dangerous to make a video denouncing wokeness without at all addressing how lower stages of the Spiral will weaponize this to create a MAGA-like regression into Blue, Orange, and even Red.

When people like Tate, Trump, and Kanye dominate the news, it is political malpractice to record a video against wokeness and not address the evils of anti-wokeness. Many people will watch this video and leave with the conclusion that woke is bad and anti-woke is good.

The danger posed by Green is less than the danger posed by Blue and Orange. You cannot discusss Green in isolation from its alternatives. The alternative is not Yellow, it's Orange, Blue, and even Red.

If Teal is seriously gonna complain about gaslighting, how about the masters of gaslighting: the right-wing? As if cries of reverse-racism and reverse-sexism by the right are not the mother of all gaslights. The right has been gaslighting about racism for 200 years.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

21 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

It's literally the same people in both cases.

No it isn't.

Quote

The only difference between woke and right wing is upbringing and possibly socio-economic status, but their levels of consciousness are roughly the same.

No! They are literally different levels of consciousness. This is why I teach Spiral Dynamics, so people stop making this mistake.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Tyler Robinson]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

All of Teal's points are valid critiques of stage Green. But I feel like she's not acknowledging that this is juat how stage Green is. Of course it has limits, and of course group-think, conformity, and intolerance are some of the biggest downsides of Green. But our society is nowhere developed or mature enough for Tier 2. Wilber makes this same mistake of talking about Green as though we should already be beyond it, when obviously most of the world still has yet to experience Green.

And also it is dangerous to make a video denouncing wokeness without at all addressing how lower stages of the Spiral will weaponize this create a MAGA-like regression into Blue, Orange, and even Red.

The danger posed by Green is less than the danger posed by Blue and Orange. You cannot discusss Green in isolation from its alternatives. The alternative is not Yellow, it's Orange, Blue, and Red.

Can there be regression into Blue that is more healthy? 

[Leo Gura]

16 minutes ago, Tyler Robinson said:

Can there be regression into Blue that is more healthy? 

Traditional Christian values would be that path, for example. But Christians are horribly corrupt so I wouldn't expect any decency from them.

Stage Blue religion is the ultimate fake wokeness. The entire history of Christianity is devils virtue-signaling about how godly they are.

Is any American Christian awake? Do any of them tolerate alternative POV? Is any of them Christ-like? They are all full of shit.

Just look at JP. He is the best example of what happens when you reject wokeness, and then what? You devolve into tweeting about how climate isn't a real thing and fat chicks are bad.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Tyler Robinson]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Is any American Christian awake?

I'm not sure if you were raised Christian because you have never discussed that. 

But you do embody Christian values of love, forgiveness etc. 

If you look at a typical Christian, you would find them corrupt but Christianity as a movement focuses on true virtues and morality. I don't find corruption in that. 

For example the cardinal Christian values are very close to stage Green. 

 

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, Tyler Robinson said:

But you do embody Christian values of love, forgiveness etc. 

I embody those precisely because I am not a Christian.

There is not a single Christian who knows what Love is.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[How to be wise]

@Leo Gura It seems that there has been an increase of conservative individuals on this forum who may not be familiar with the concept of spiral dynamics. I think it might be helpful to pin some of the mega-threads on this topic, as it has been a while since you last made a video on it.

[mr_engineer]

This is what it looks like when the adults start standing up to woke oppression. 

43 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

And also it is dangerous to make a video denouncing wokeness without at all addressing how lower stages of the Spiral will weaponize this to create a MAGA-like regression into Blue, Orange, and even Red.

When people like Tate, Trump, and Kanye dominate the news, it is political malpractice to record a video against wokeness and not address the evils of anti-wokeness. Many people will watch this video and leave with the conclusion that woke is bad and anti-woke is good.

The danger posed by Green is less than the danger posed by Blue and Orange. You cannot discusss Green in isolation from its alternatives. The alternative is not Yellow, it's Orange, Blue, and even Red.

If Teal is seriously gonna complain about gaslighting, how about the masters of gaslighting: the right-wing? As if cries of reverse-racism and reverse-sexism by the right are not the mother of all gaslights. The right has been gaslighting about racism for 200 years.

This is a what-aboutism. Stay on the topic, please. Don't shift the focus where you want it and ignore important details. 

43 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

All of Teal's points are valid critiques of stage Green. But I feel like she's not acknowledging that this is just how stage Green is. What else do you expect? Nobody gives a fuck about real awakening (not even Teal's audience I would suggest). Of course Green has limits, and of course group-think, conformity, and intolerance are some of the biggest downsides of Green. But our society is nowhere developed or mature enough for Tier 2. Wilber makes this same mistake of talking about Green as though we should already be beyond it, when obviously most of the world still has yet to experience Green. Half of America demonizes Green. This is a fact you cannot deny. So there cannot be Yellow any time soon.

So, what do you want, then? Do you want the world to turn into a communist dictatorship in which people's thoughts, opinions and actions are controlled by the woke people? Where there is no room for disagreement?! 

Consider the possibility that people's critiques of wokeness come from above, not below. People should be able to say to each other 'what you're saying is bullshit' and not be censored for that. 

It's not important to solve problems that happened 200 years ago. It's important to solve problems that are happening right now. Cuz we live in the world that's happening right now. 

Edited January 8, 2023 by mr_engineer

[Tyler Robinson]

5 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

So, what do you want, then? Do you want the world to turn into a communist dictatorship in which people's thoughts, opinions and actions are controlled by the woke people? Where there is no room for disagreement?! 

In order to overcome the barriers of a phase we must  at least first reach that phase. 

People talk about the limits of GREEN but they haven't even reached Green yet. 

 

[Leo Gura]

31 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

Consider the possibility that people's critiques of wokeness come from above, not below.

They don't.

Critiques of Green from above rare very rare. And even when they are made by people like Wilber or Teal, they are still misguided because the political battle doesn't stop to accomodate Yellow. In practice what would happen if Teal's political advice was followed is that American democracy would be overthrown in a fascist coup by mouthbreathing religous fanatics. the ironic thing is that the woke are the only thing standing between Teal being burned at the stake for the witch that she is. Once the MAGA take power then you'll really see "free speech" and "cancel culture".

As intolerant as the woke are, anything less than woke is far more intolerant. And that intolerance will be felt by Teal and her tribe first and foremost. Teal's whole audience is full of soft Green crybabies who will be raped and trafficked by the likes of Tate and his Red Pill wannabes. Teal's role in an anti-woke society is either as a housewife or burning at the stake. She should know better having grown up in Mormon Utah.

Green is not merely virtue signaling, Green is keeping corporations, fascists, and religious fanatics from enslaving you. You can't speak of the evils of Green without speaking of their positive function in society.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Leo Gura