Ketamin study on depression failed!

[OBEler]

https://www.greenmarketreport.com/atai-life-sciences-ketamine-treatment-for-depression-fails-in-mid-stage-trial/

they gave 110 people with non treatable depression 30 mg or 60 mg r ketamin (IV) or placebo. After the day and after two weeks there were no significant differences between placebo group and ketamin group. 

This is surprising, for everyone, because there are so many anecdotes out there and other studies, which show that ketamin can drastically improve depression even long term.

Was the study design not good (dosis too low, just one trip) or are there really no effects of ketamin on depression?  What do you think about this?

[Javfly33]

After trying Ketamine some times I always was skeptical that helps depression.... I don't think its the best chem for that.

I still the think the most useful substances for non treatable depression is moderate-big dose of LSD or Psylicibin

[Leo Gura]

There is no magic pill for depression. Depressed people need to radically change their minds, which no psychedelic will do for you.

The positive mood effects of psychedelics will come and go, just like any other drug.

I think science is over-stating the chronic positive mood effects of psychedelics. Long-term it will not hold up. You can't just take a psychedelic a few times and fix your problems. Psychedelics are not a cure for mental dysfunction, they are a tool for raising consciousness, and your consciousness will fall right back down after they wear off.

Edited January 6, 2023 by Leo Gura

[OBEler]

@Leo Gura from personal experience I agree so far. Psychedelics are not a magic pill and people need to know that reports about curing depression are often reported just after short period of time after the trip. You still just are in afterglow effect of psychedelics. When it wears off you will be almost back to baseline

Still, psychedelics or ketamin can radically change your mind. There is potential in it, a short window. You need to take action by yourself to get out of it, longterm. 

Edited January 6, 2023 by OBEler

[Leo Gura]

There is a bit too much hype within materialist medicine right now about psychedelics. Again, they are making the mistake of treating psychedelics in a materialist way, which is completely antithetical to the core lessons of psychedelics. They want to turn psychedelics into the next opioid/antidepressant. They think this will work, but I predict it will lead to lots of disappointment because that's not how psychedelics are meant to be used.

Psychedelics are not a medicine. Their only function is to temporarily raise consciousness. Treating them as medicine will lead to problems.

Edited January 6, 2023 by Leo Gura

[OBEler]

@Leo Gura they also help releasing stuck energy in your body. Some of them trigger neurogenesis (creating new brain cells) and new pathways are possible, brain plasticity should increase. you can see other perspectives and are not stuck in your human one. It can give you insights an understanding of your personal traumas.

I can understand why materialists see these psychedelics as a magic medicine for everything. 

You were once more positive about psychedelics and depression. It seems you saw some more things, which changed your opinion

[Leo Gura]

13 minutes ago, OBEler said:

@Leo Gura they also help releasing stuck energy in your body. Some of them trigger neurogenesis (creating new brain cells) and new pathways are possible, brain plasticity should increase.

Maybe, but this is the exception, not the rule. Generally-speaking you should not expect any permanent changes from taking a psychedelic.

I don't like it when people hype that part up because it presents a misleading picture of what psychedelics will realistically do for you.

Quote

You were once more positive about psychedelics and depression. It seems you saw some more things, which changed your opinion

I am getting a lot more realistic these days about how psychedelics work. Psychedelics are dangerous because they can make you start to believe your own fantasies about them, so you gotta be super careful and rigorous about your claims. Too many soft-nosed claims are made by hippie types of people.

Basically, if a hippie tells you that psychedelics cured their depression, don't be so gullible as to believe them.

Edited January 6, 2023 by Leo Gura

[OBEler]

@Leo Gura @Leo Gura Yeah I falled in that trap.. It sounded too good to be true. All these Hippies are not really rational and honest about this topic. 

But one thing that I have clear evidence for is, that psychedelics help with migraine (especially lsd) . A reduction of 90% longterm. This to see from personal experience were so magical I thought psychedelics can also cure depression. But depression is a total different beast, almost like cancer. For most people I see no chance to treat depression just with psychedelics alone. Microdosing, breakthroughs, being God, seing the devil, experience the best and worst you can imagine, it doesnt matter in the end. You will go back to depression again 

Edited January 7, 2023 by OBEler

[Leo Gura]

58 minutes ago, OBEler said:

A reduction of 90% longterm.

But what happens when you don't take that LSD for a year? Your migraines come back?

I don't deny such benefits are possible. You just gotta be real honest with yourself about whether it was the psychedelic that caused it and whether the benefit was temporary.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Jodistrict]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

There is a bit too much hype within materialist medicine right now about psychedelics. Again, they are making the mistake of treating psychedelics in a materialist way, which is completely antithetical to the core lessons of psychedelics. They want to turn psychedelics into the next opioid/antidepressant. They think this will work, but I predict it will lead to lots of disappointment because that's not how psychedelics are meant to be used.

Psychedelics are not a medicine. Their only function is to temporarily raise consciousness. Treating them as medicine will lead to problems.

It makes sense to call them “medicine” in the holistic sense in which they are used in shamanism, but I have no faith in reductionist science and their obsessive focus on depression, as if it is a thing that can be cured.

[ardacigin]

This entire idea of 'Using a psychedelic substance a few times and completely overcoming depression for the rest of your life' is a pipe dream. It is an extremely childish notion that defies the nature of how complicated each person is, let alone impermanence and radical interconnectedness of all phenomena.

Your baseline emotional states (like depression) which is a multi-layered unconscious feeling directed and generated by incredibly deep illusions which include your sense of being a separate self, is not  a small thing.

It is all interconnected and just saying 'use this psychedelic a few times and all your problems will go away' is nothing more than humanity's desire to find a superficial shortcut to a more systemic and deep problem.

Edited January 7, 2023 by ardacigin

[Leo Gura]

@ardacigin Well said.

[OBEler]

@Leo Gura

50 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But what happens when you don't take that LSD for a year? Your migraines come back?

I don't deny such benefits are possible. You just gotta be real honest with yourself about where it was the psychedelic that caused it and whether the benefit was temporary.

Yes the migraine comes slowly back after about 4 Weeks sober. But you just need a microdose here and there and the migraine is gone in about 30 minutes.

It was my girlfriend who had migraine. I was with her before she ever took any substance to a neurologist who diagnosed her with migraine. She had at least 3 times per week for month migraine attacks which results in being for 3 to 4 hours in pain while lying in bed. Two days after the visit of the neurologist I gave her a very small amout of lsd first time. The migraine went away. She took then almost every two weeks lsd. Now every month and the migraine very rarely shows up. This alone is total incredible and life changing

[OBEler]

@ardacigin but as you say if depression depends on very rooted illusions like the sense of a separation, then really psychedelics should be the key to this because they show you that these rooted illusions are not real.

No separated self, no other, no problem. no depression.

[ardacigin]

 

19 minutes ago, OBEler said:

@ardacigin but as you say if depression depends on very rooted illusions like the sense of a separation, then really psychedelics should be the key to this because they show you that these rooted illusions are not real.

No separated self, no other, no problem. no depression.

Seeing the truth of reality in a psychedelic session when your entire mind is in the effect of said substance for 30mins-12 hours straight (depending on the substance) is a completely different ball game to understanding and integrating the truth deeply permanently, letting all of your core programming of your unconscious mind revise its wordlview and perceptions indefinitely!

If what you said was true, everyone would be spiritual masters after taking 1 high breakthrough dose of 5 meo dmt. You saw the truth VERY DEEPLY AND CLEARLY there so it should have an 'infinite' and 'bottomless' understanding that is integrated until the moment of your 'death', right?

It is the same childish fantasy this scientific research is trying to prove. A few psychedelics in a clinical setting (even with amazing guidance) wont solve such a deep systemic problem like depression permanently. The possibility of this happening is not even theoretically high let alone practical. Especially after seeing how reality, mind and emotional states really work and arise.

It can be helpful as a catalyst for further spiritual practice. But that will the be the main benefit. Unless any further practice is initiated by the person, no actual growth or change will occur.

Your mind, personal issues, emotional problems, and their solutions are WAAAAAY more complicated than you give credit for. 

Edited January 7, 2023 by ardacigin

[OBEler]

@ardacigin Yeah that are some good points. Depression is really complicated. A whole lifestyle and mindset and body change needs to be done for sure and even that is no guarantee at all

my girlfriend still will give ketamine a chance. of course just for a short time periode because of addiction possibility and organ damage. i will report if it helped her depression

Edited January 7, 2023 by OBEler

[Javfly33]

Very on point ideas and analysis in this topic. Yeah, society again is expecting an outside tool to fix something that is created from within.

I really find offensive the whole idea of expecting doing 2 or 3 trips to cure something that has been going on on your life for maybe a decade or two. People preach about it but I find sneaky that it actually works. As Leo said, you can brainwash yourself to believe your own fantasies about them.

[StarStruck]

From my own experience Molly does wonders. It busts open the heart chakra so the body-mind does the healing.

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by StarStruck

[OBEler]

@StarStruck what other substances did you try out

 

The Research Shows very good results for Mdma

[StarStruck]

6 minutes ago, OBEler said:

@StarStruck what other substances did you try out

 

The Research Shows very good results for Mdma

LSD which does hit the problem from a different angle but from me MDMA was most effective because it hits the heart chakra. The problem is that is MDMA is very straining on the body. Recovery period of 3 months is recommend so the body can replenish.