Ketamin study on depression failed!

[Grateful Dead]

Stanislav Grof had incredible success in healing mentally ill people with LSD. Ketamine is not optimal for this work unless you have taken psychedelics before imo. There are many factors that go into whether it works or not.

Most people with depression or other mental health issues can't even work to change their minds because they can't see what's wrong. Of course, a few psychedelics trips will not solve your depression or other mental health problems, no reputable therapist would claim that. But they can give you a new perspective, and they do so very effectively when the dose is high enough for a breaktrough experience, and from there, those people can start seriously transforming their lifes.

[ItsNick]

Healing depression is likely to be hard work and very painful.

If you use psychedelics as a tool on your healing path you're going to have to face a lot of pain before things get better. And then you have to learn to love yourself and the pain unconditionally...

And I'm not sure Ketamine is the best drug for that process as it's a dissociate. And it's not something (in my view) that really connects you deeply to your emotions and pain you will have to face.

[Thought Art]

When you aren't on Ketamine... you exist and are conscious. You need a whole toolbox to do work around the house. A screw driver is a shitty way of painting walls.

I haven't tried ketamine but..

Mushrooms... I had one trip and it radically changed my relationship with depression FOREVER. Though, like I said I was using a whole toolbox and building a life of self efficacy self esteem. 

Edited January 7, 2023 by Thought Art

[Ulax]

@OBEler I think that study only sheds light onto a certain type of use of ketamine for mental health treatment.

I know that others see it as a means of entering a state of higher consciousness which allows therapy to be much more effective during that period. It doesn't seem to me any therapy was attempted (from your post), so I'd still be interested to see a study on therapy + ket, rather than just ket.

[no_name]

18 hours ago, ardacigin said:

include your sense of being a separate self

Could you explain that? 

[ardacigin]

4 hours ago, no_name said:

Could you explain that? 

The illusory perception of feeling like a self looking at the world as a person rests at the core of your depression and all problems. 0nce the source issue is gone, so is the symptom.

 

[OBEler]

@acidgoofy why Do you think people need psychedelic experience before ketamin, otherwise ketamin is not the right Tool? 

[no_name]

2 hours ago, ardacigin said:

The illusory perception of feeling like a self looking at the world as a person rests at the core of your depression and all problems. 0nce the source issue is gone, so is the symptom.

 

so the illusion is that you are a separate being in the universe? So once you stop seeing yourself as separate and universe as hostile but rather see it as loving and guiding?  

[Leo Gura]

8 hours ago, ardacigin said:

The illusory perception of feeling like a self looking at the world as a person rests at the core of your depression and all problems. 0nce the source issue is gone, so is the symptom.

 

Not necessarily so simple.

Case in point: Alan Watts, who died a depressed alcoholic.

A spiritual person can still get depressed in practice if their life takes a wrong turn. Spirituality does not make you invincible.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Jodistrict]

Alan Watts was a scholar but it is uncertain whether he had any spiritual practice.  He did Zen for a while but then quit.

https://tricycle.org/magazine/alan-watts-reconsidered/
 

[bambi]

Yeah theres a difference between knowing the path and walking the path.

 

Spirituality in its essence is Health in all dimensons. and its a removal of an identity within any seperation. Thats why meditation is powerful, Samadhi and Vipassana are the two greatest tools for transformative change.

[Starlight321]

Alan Watts did lots of Zazen and took lsd and dmt. There are interviews where he talks about it.

[How to be wise]

It was the depression that led him to study zen and spirituality. 80% of people who enter spirituality do so because of their suffering. So in the end it turned out to be a gift.

[ardacigin]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Not necessarily so simple.

Case in point: Alan Watts, who died a depressed alcoholic.

A spiritual person can still get depressed in practice if their life takes a wrong turn. Spirituality does not make you invincible.

Well,that argument assumes Alan Watts was 'deeply' awakened which I would personally not suggest.

Second of all, understanding the depth of no self goes all the way from stream entry to Salvia levels of understanding and then also beyond that as well. Further stages of awakening also requires emotional and samatha levels of mastery over the mind. I dont remember Alan Watts teaching or practicing jhanas or higher levels of emotional training.

I wouldn't dismiss that Alan Watts had a certain depth of awakening. But as a 'depressed alcoholic', I wouldnt assume he has enough wisdom to work through those habitual forces. Also he might have been stuck in a 'dark night' sort of episode for years and not go further with spirituality. We simply dont know enough to make an assesment.

Thats why I said emotional problems are deep and requires not only some degree of awakening + samatha vipassana mastery over the mind to permanently eliminate its source.

After all, depression is a form psychological suffering produced by the mind. If Alan Watts was as awakened and wise as people make him out to be, he'd have enough introspective awareness and equanimity to not only work on his depression but also his alcohol addiction.

Alan Watts is certainly a charismatic and wise teacher but that doesnt mean we should assume exactly what he is conscious of. 

 

Edited January 8, 2023 by ardacigin

[Javfly33]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Not necessarily so simple.

Case in point: Alan Watts, who died a depressed alcoholic.

A spiritual person can still get depressed in practice if their life takes a wrong turn. Spirituality does not make you invincible.

Because in Western world if you re-parrot the words of "Self, liberation, enlightment" etc and you can give bright speeches about it then it is considered you are "spiritual".

The whole purpose of spirituality is to gain control of your mental, physical and energy system so you tune yourself to high state of awareness beyond compulsive survival ones that the majority of man kind is still stuck on.

If you are depressed alcoholic, you weren't spiritual, you *talked or *thought spirituality.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, ardacigin said:

Alan Watts is certainly a charismatic and wise teacher but that doesnt mean we should assume exactly what he is conscious of. 

Of course, but then that same logic will apply to every spritual aspirant.

Also, you have no idea how depressed you'd get if your life turned the wrong way. Your ideas of invulnerability are a fantasy. Some people are depressed because they have objectively worse lives than you.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Jodistrict]

You can measure a spiritual master by what he can he take from life.  Like the Tibetan masters who still have compassion for the Chinese who destroyed their country and murdered millions.  Their level of mastery is unreal.

[TRUTHWITHCAPITALT]

Use the humanism(illusory ego) model you will get illusory answer use the consiousness model you will get the right answer.

[Yimpa]

On 1/6/2023 at 6:42 PM, ardacigin said:

This entire idea of 'Using a psychedelic substance a few times and completely overcoming depression for the rest of your life' is a pipe dream. It is an extremely childish notion that defies the nature of how complicated each person is, let alone impermanence and radical interconnectedness of all phenomena.

Your baseline emotional states (like depression) which is a multi-layered unconscious feeling directed and generated by incredibly deep illusions which include your sense of being a separate self, is not  a small thing.

It is all interconnected and just saying 'use this psychedelic a few times and all your problems will go away' is nothing more than humanity's desire to find a superficial shortcut to a more systemic and deep problem.

I have a feeling this is why my shaman / therapist who used to work at the ketamine clinic I went to left and started her own practice.

The clinic became corrupt and started focusing more and more on the money/Tik Tok like advertising, and hyping ketamine as magic fix for mental health issues. 

Nevertheless, mental health issues are an extremely complex issue, so the fact that ketamine is becoming more mainstream - I’m all for it. The medicines we have for mental health issues currently are so limited and poor;  I believe psychedelics are a necessary option for people who have tried every traditional anti depression / anti-anxiety / anti whatever to no avail (such as myself).

[ardacigin]

8 hours ago, Yimpa said:

I have a feeling this is why my shaman / therapist who used to work at the ketamine clinic I went to left and started her own practice.

The clinic became corrupt and started focusing more and more on the money/Tik Tok like advertising, and hyping ketamine as magic fix for mental health issues. 

Nevertheless, mental health issues are an extremely complex issue, so the fact that ketamine is becoming more mainstream - I’m all for it. The medicines we have for mental health issues currently are so limited and poor;  I believe psychedelics are a necessary option for people who have tried every traditional anti depression / anti-anxiety / anti whatever to no avail (such as myself).

Thats cool. I'm not against psychedelics for treatment. It is just not the full picture, only the beginning.

How is your depression now? 

Much love,