9 Stages of Ego Development - Post Conventional Examples

[Vynce]

Hey guys and @Leo Gura, I'm deeply studying Susanne Cook-Greuters 9 Stages of Ego Development model right now again. 

I'm currently searching for some concrete human examples of the post conventional stages.

Especially for the:

the Strategist stage

the Construct Aware stage 

and the Unitive stage. 

(For you Spiral Dynamics fan boys these are the stages yellow and above - However they seem to be more nuanced and differently modeled than SD.)

[ValiantSalvatore]

It's pretty much the same. Besides the main differantiation is ego development and spiral dynamics focuses on values. In my eyes. I've read the paper and studied it a bit not in great depth, it's practically for me how others relate to themselves and it's as far as Wilber explains a taking of perspective. 

IIRC the unitive stage let's say is 11+ cognitively and can hold into awareness 11 peoples point of view etc. Then the whole thing down & up.

Most sages/wise beigns  are beyond the unitive like: 

Sadghuru
Peter Ralston
Shinzen Young
Mingyur Ringpoche
Ken Wilber
Daniel Ingram 
Guru Viking 
Deepak Chopra (I'd say he's beyond this)
Eventually even Sam Harris
(Other more unkown teachers etc.)

I'd recommend reading the religion of tomorrow for a deeper view on stages, as far as I know unitive is either the stage of ego development conflated with still beign in ego, yet stages beyond ego. I dunno I find it hard to give concrete examples. 

Strategist Stage = Yellow -> I liked Eban Pagan when I did the online-dating course from him, my last professor was high in yellow and I find people interested in geo science have high strategies level qualties, Boulder Colerado, Switzerland possibly, highly ethical scientists I've meet have these qualties. 

Construct Aware Turqouise -> Possibly educated and/or integral infromed, also at times random people who practice a lot of meditation&yoga, yet are still bound of ego, meaning creation aware, usage of highly complex language. It's the need to complexity at strategist levels etc. It's rare I am not very active in spiritual communities, I found myself in the dynamics of beign construct aware very often, and presented the paper to a psychologist, she could not make intutive sense out of this and forced a rule/role mind and this expert type of thinking. Aware of story-telling and meaning creation, not only context of a language etc. It's rare to meet such individuals although there are some and cognitive capacity of it should be available after a university degree.

As far as I can understand you can be a construct-aware stage red nazi, that is how "bonkers" integral theory can get imo. 

Like I said I did not study it deeply I watched the videos and studied it to various levels of depth at times, as I just find myself in the spectrum.

The wikipedia page also might help to dispell disambiguation. Leo's video is also pretty good. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loevinger's_stages_of_ego_development
https://integrallife.com/introduction-ego-development/
https://integrallife.com/stages-leadership-maturity/

Can't give more direct sources besides the papers which I can. I bet even on this forum there are people who transcend this model already, not many a handful just to give some perspective!

As far as I know the research is stuck as there are such few examples, it would be not be very significant to conduct studies on such a small number of people even for unitive/strategist it's hard to find humans/beigns/people for this, it's practically the "conscious elite" of society etc. Depending on how'd you few it integral would also include the emotional line ( total mystery to me) and moral line to fully include an itnegral development etc. 
 

Edited January 4, 2023 by ValiantSalvatore

[ValiantSalvatore]

2 hours ago, tuckerwphotography said:

don't see @ValiantSalvatore 's list below as accurate, with the exception of Shinzen Young and Ken Wilber. It's important to remember that just because one is spiritually awakened does not mean they have an ego development that is Construct Aware or later. This is a very common misunderstanding. Spiritual awakening is a separate line of development, and just because one talks about spiritual concepts that seem unitive in nature does not mean they have the other factors that would be necessary to be stabilized at a later ego developmental level. 

I did a couple of  wilber/integral courses and the recommended practices, yes that is a fine distinction! I don't want to make the effort of listing them, all as I'd get lost in the meticulousness of it. 

Between the spiritual line and the ego development line, as I most likely conflated the two in some manner, I am unsure that to what that fully means as especially in the case about, yet I know that in that sense and with integral lingo. Structure-stages are different from states, and also ... state-statges. Hence, the conflation I see the term of taking these perspectives and advancing in structure-stages which also means cognitive development, especially taking on the perspectives of these state experiences permanently as a structure-stage. 

Also personally, you'd have to be blind to not see Ralston at higher stages, I've meet plently of ph.d's and others who have credentials, contemplating these maps for years now very young and seeing real masters, and juxtaposing them is amazing. Ralston is beyond Wilber I'd say and even the local zen master I've meet in Europe, is beyond most of the people on the list, as most PHD's and masters are stuck in their theory and models and selling these models. While still having stage turqousie and yellow cognitive development, only because one has not mastered the lingo of these maps, it does not mean they could not be beyond is. I highly doubt that Roger Walsh has a higher development than Shinzen Young on the structure-stages perspective not in a billion years, not even considering spiral dynamics and the amount of work and life story of Shinzen. Even Ken Wilber I mean like the amount of practice and development the guy went through lol.

People like Shinzen Young, Sadghuru, Peter Ralston, Daniel Ingram (he'd readily admitt if he's not also ironically), are way beyond besides I am conflating structure-stages with just structure states, which is a distinction Ken Wilber draws. I stopped studying the maps mostly, as there are not many people to talk about these subjects, although they are highly relevant like spiral dynamics. 

Wilber also stated in one taste. I believe that he is somehwere around the ultraviolet/violet meta-mind etc. 

https://www.facebook.com/stagesinternational/videos/the-difficult-transition-into-construct-aware/1274706409341047/
Also this rings so true for me it's incredible.

Just watching this from one of the links, in my mind justifies the list with the level of development and all of these academics with huge 3/4 - 4 cravings and still seeing that pull, that is gone from most of these masters in an artsy way beyond any of these on the list. Anyway this is my perspective to all of this lol. I mean where did they learn this from? 

My intention is not to discredit, yet I doubt the list above from you is correct, and I doubt any scientific model will fully grasp and model the nature of reality. It comes from pioneers anyway who make that leap. Leo is as far as I understand making claims of having gone beyond these. Still I doubt that for example also, yet not the structure-state experience of having gone beyond. 

Feel free to correct me in case the distinction between ego-development and spiritual development is not conflateable with the terms from integral theory, structure-stages and structure states, as far as I can recall. I dunno I did the course at integral life and ironically I am in softeware development/engineering which he sees as a hallmark of stage yellow/turqouise thinking etc. In contrast to just plain programming also. I dunno I am on your side as far as I can tell on doing the practices, my intention is to clarify and bring in another perspective.

Anyway I've seen plenty of stuff here to tell the list above is incorrect 100%, and yes I take things personally no reason to gaslight. 

Thanks for providing the list, my intention was not to seem rude, yet I can tell your interpretation is also not correct and yes I took that personally .

Edited January 7, 2023 by ValiantSalvatore

[Leo Gura]

Ken Wilber, Daniel Schmachtenberger, and Peter Ralston are good examples of Construct-Aware+

Edited January 7, 2023 by Leo Gura

[tuckerwphotography]

@ValiantSalvatore Hey there, thanks for sharing your reflections. I'm not here to argue or debate. Apologies if my post came off as attacking you in any way - that was certainly not my intention. I'm not familiar with Peter Ralston (have heard his name but don't know his work in depth) so I can't speak to him specifically and should have mentioned that in my original post that quoted your list. Same with Daniel Ingram. I'll try to spend some time with their work this week and get back to you on what I experience from them.

I feel very confident that the folks on my list would be assessed at 5.0+ (Construct Aware or later) on a developmental test. If you have specific reasons why someone on that list does not display the characteristics and qualities associated with these later developmental levels, please let me know, and I'll be happy to share my take. 

If you listen to Roger Walsh's "Deep Transformations" podcast, he often speaks about the Construct Aware stage specifically, which, if you're going through that transition, you may find helpful. I recommend his conversations with Beena Sharma, who likely is another example of someone operating from Construct Aware. 

As for Shinzen, I've spoken with several of his students who are also familiar with later developmental models and experience him at Transpersonal 5.5, which comes after Construct Aware. He may have access to much higher state experiences and a much larger range and depth of states than the average person at 5.5, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is stabilized at a later stage of ego development. He may be. Neither of us know for sure unless he takes an assessment. 

I'm sharing the list of folks above as they've been helpful in my own journey of not just understanding but experiencing, integrating and embodying later stage capacities. Again, happy to go into more detail if you'd like, in the spirit of a constructive and thoughtful conversation that is hopefully helpful to both of us and others on the forum. Much love! 

 

[tuckerwphotography]

Daniel Brown is another example of a Unitive+ teacher. Love this video of his...Construct Aware teachings.

 

[ValiantSalvatore]

11 hours ago, tuckerwphotography said:

Hey there, thanks for sharing your reflections. I'm not here to argue or debate. Apologies if my post came off as attacking you in any way - that was certainly not my intention. I'm not familiar with Peter Ralston (have heard his name but don't know his work in depth) so I can't speak to him specifically and should have mentioned that in my original post that quoted your list. Same with Daniel Ingram. I'll try to spend some time with their work this week and get back to you on what I experience from them.

I feel very confident that the folks on my list would be assessed at 5.0+ (Construct Aware or later) on a developmental test. If you have specific reasons why someone on that list does not display the characteristics and qualities associated with these later developmental levels, please let me know, and I'll be happy to share my take. 

If you listen to Roger Walsh's "Deep Transformations" podcast, he often speaks about the Construct Aware stage specifically, which, if you're going through that transition, you may find helpful. I recommend his conversations with Beena Sharma, who likely is another example of someone operating from Construct Aware. 

As for Shinzen, I've spoken with several of his students who are also familiar with later developmental models and experience him at Transpersonal 5.5, which comes after Construct Aware. He may have access to much higher state experiences and a much larger range and depth of states than the average person at 5.5, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is stabilized at a later stage of ego development. He may be. Neither of us know for sure unless he takes an assessment. 

I'm sharing the list of folks above as they've been helpful in my own journey of not just understanding but experiencing, integrating and embodying later stage capacities. Again, happy to go into more detail if you'd like, in the spirit of a constructive and thoughtful conversation that is hopefully helpful to both of us and others on the forum. Much love! 

Hey thanks for the kind feedback! I've did a course from Beena Sharma as she is part of an organisation I know that teaches the developmental models to companies and I thought that I eventually would love to get into similar style of counseling after some time working within the field of my life purpose, as I find these models highly relevant enjoyable to work with. Although integrating the lessons from this course in real life is not so easy, as most don't react appropriately when thinking in pairs, and often it has to be coupled with deep understanding in skill centric areas of development (at least I feel in Europe) otherwise.

I don't know for me just listing people who have coach certificates in this area smells like bias and self-serving bias to me and I don't know how the research was conducted for this sort of developmental map, as well as it's a language based assesment as far as I can recall from Susan-Cook-Greuter.  I appreciate the list, I don't even doubt the development of these people, I am just a unsure what ego development entails, as as far as I can recall from Wilber courses it's similar to cognitive development and taking perspectives. For example at stage 4.5,5 (O'fallon) you become aware of all other stages, which is highly cognitive experience in itself. While others are not aware of context, achievment drives, multiculturalism, systems thinking, holism in everyday experiences, ethnocentric attitudes, without combating them. Stages 4.5 and 5 are the first stages that don't create this culture war. 

My intention was not to argue, yet in terms of writing and assuming I have no prio knowledge I felt kind of offended, I love to discuss these topics I might be a bit over-enthusiastic as I really like clarity and I can be critical without having full insight into the problem, yet I am highly context aware lol. 

What you've shared is already plenty! Thanks for that feel free to share more! I am pretty sure with all the work and courses I've done without more reading and research, I will not change some opinions, I am pretty convinced that Shinzen with all the type of training they recommend is far beyond, I can't tell for Ralston as I am unsure how far he deeply studied reality in terms of perspectival type of understanding. My understanding of ego development might be wrong, yet it's the capacity to hold in awareness the perspective of the ego and then other stakeholders, as far as I can tell in the papers they share the view of holding 1,2,3 person of awareness till n'th person. Best example I can give for Unitive+ stages of experiences is psychdelics where you feel and see the perspective of so many other beigns as well as on high meditative peaks.

I did this course from Beena Sharma.
https://integrallife.com/integrating-polarities-training/

Did this training from Ken Wilber:
https://integrallife.com/full-spectrum-mindfulness-web-course/

Listend to loads of audiobooks to this topic. Feel free to correct my potential misunderstanding about ego development, structure-stages & taking on the perspective of self & other. As I might have conflated the stuff to much. 

Edited January 8, 2023 by ValiantSalvatore

[asifarahim]

@tuckerwphotography how did u reach the stage magician

What was the main reason u reached that stage

[tuckerwphotography]

23 hours ago, asifarahim said:

@tuckerwphotography how did u reach the stage magician

What was the main reason u reached that stage

@asifarahim I wrote an essay that covers much of the journey: Ten Awakenings - A Guide Home

[asifarahim]

On 10/01/2023 at 7:51 PM, tuckerwphotography said:

@asifarahim I wrote an essay that covers much of the journey: Ten Awakenings - A Guide Home

@tuckerwphotography 

I read it. I have some questions

1) how did u survive without money for 5 years ?

2) so it took u 5 years to move from green to turqoise ?

3) so u just used spiritual practice to reach such high stage and not through chasing goals. Was the spirtul journey that took u to magician and not chasing goals and having strong work ethic?

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by asifarahim

[tuckerwphotography]

20 minutes ago, asifarahim said:

@tuckerwphotography 

I read it. I have some questions

1) how did u survive without money for 5 years ?

2) so it took u 5 years to move from green to turqoise ?

3) so u just used spiritual practice to reach such high stage and not through chasing goals. Was the spirtul journey that took u to magician and not chasing goals and having strong work ethic?

 

@asifarahim

1. I was very lucky to have a lot of savings from my job as a film director. 

2. Depends on if we're talking about worldview or ego development, which are sometimes separate things. From a worldview perspective, I was in Green in high school, as I grew up with parents who have mostly Green values. From an ego development perspective, my center of gravity moved into Pluralist in 2016. Then Strategist in 2019. Then Construct Aware in 2021. I still have a lot of filling out to do in Strategist and certainly Construct Aware. My development was likely expedited by the fact that from 2018-2022 my "full time job" was focusing on my development, awakening, healing, etc. Most people don't have this privilege. 

3. I don't understand your question. If you're asking if I "tried" to get to Construct Aware, the answer is mostly no, though when I learned more about that stage (once I was already partly in it) it certainly catalyzed my development, and that was something I was consciously putting effort into via a whole host of practices, trainings, workshops, contemplation, meditation, psychedelics, etc.