Cessation vs God realization

[Kuba Powiertowski]

@axiom that is only partly true. Not every story stays behind separation. Some separate, some unite..

[axiom]

4 minutes ago, Godishere said:

99% of people on the forum just want to perpetuate the sense of self! It just can't be "this" lol. It has to be something else! It's so funny when you get it. It really is like you have been searching for your glasses everywhere, but they're on your head. There are no awake people!!!! ?

 

Hello!

… and yes! ? 

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, axiom said:

Hi Carl. Are you playing devil’s advocate here? I think you actually do resonate with what is being said.

I'm just trying save the guy from the vortex of mindless jumping into the absolute perspective every time somebody discusses something of substance. "I think people are born with different trait–" "nobody is born!!!"

 

4 hours ago, Kuba Powiertowski said:

@spiritual memes you misunderstood me. On the contrary. I consider consciousness as a prior to everything else that appears and manifests in awarness. But if Carl-Richard claims that genetics determines Will ergo Consciousness, than I demand any proof for such statement. To be honest I don't demand anything from nobody. Beliefs cannot be challenged, changed or removed from outside. 

I'll concede to your idealist absolutism and rephrase my prior statements:

Short version:

I believe that some appearances in consciousness that we refer to as "taking a shit" correlate with other appearances in consciousness that we refer to as "feeling good".

Long version:

If the appearance that you call your body were to stand inside my bathroom while the appearance that I call my own body were to take a shit, you would be able to see a large chunk of that shit, but you would not be able to see a large chunk of what I'm feeling while taking that shit. This underlies the idea behind calling the shit "matter" and calling the feelings "consciousness": there is a distinction between how two those types of appearances generally operate, but nevertheless, these appearances seem to correlate (because when I take a shit, I feel good). 

The same logic applies to appearances that we call "genetics" and appearances we call "awakening". We largely refer to genetics as "matter", and we largely refer to "awakening" as "consciousness" (or a shift thereof), and of course, the things seem to correlate (as different people awaken at different levels of practice, meaning there is something else driving their propensity towards awakening, and the most obvious answer is genetics).

Edited January 3, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[roopepa]

38 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

But these things seem to happen, never mind their fundamental nature. How do we explain these things? An illusion is illusory, but the illusion still appears as something. I'm interested in that appearance. So how do you explain the fact that it seems that some people awaken much earlier along their spiritual journey than other people?

Hear ya. But what is not true, never is.

What if... The 'illusion' is like a blink of an eye, and not even? What if it never even happens?

Truly, I hear you.

I don't know if you're familiar with ACIM... But it really shows 'the dream' as it is, something that is not. I got literally sick for a couple of days when I 'heard the message'. Like 'my mind' or 'dna' was re-wired. After, everything is quite clear. Really recommend Disappearance of the Universe by Gary R  Renard. 

Might post an "in a nutshell" overview on what's talked about in ACIM, Buddhism and Advaita Vedanta soon. ??

[spiritual memes]

37 minutes ago, Kuba Powiertowski said:

@spiritual memes you misunderstood me. On the contrary. I consider consciousness as a prior to everything else that appears and manifests in awarness. But if Carl-Richard claims that genetics determines Will ergo Consciousness, than I demand any proof for such statement. To be honest I don't demand anything from nobody. Beliefs cannot be challenged, changed or removed from outside. 

Ah i see. I think genetics determine a decent amount of our personality and behaviours so it likely has a significant effect on consciousness

[spiritual memes]

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Cessation is a dream you invented to keep yourself sleep. Have fun playing your games.

wouldn't cessation be the end of the dream? since reality blinks out of existence?

[SourceCodo]

On 1/1/2023 at 6:26 PM, vladorion said:

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

This is such a childish and gate keeping thing to say. 
 

It’s the ultimate cop-out for “If it doesn’t fit with my ideas, it’s wrong… But I don’t have a better answer.”

Edited January 3, 2023 by SourceCodo

[Kuba Powiertowski]

@Carl-Richard Listen my friend. You have your beliefs; everyone has one. I had my theories and such. At some point, I discovered the dimensions of existence and experience; I don't know what to call them, which, despite attempts to describe them in language, are elusive to the mind. Yet, their experience is much clearer and (this is a bad word) more real than what most I took for granted, the absolute reality of this life outside of me. The second interesting aspect of these dimensions is that they are not alien to me; I will even be tempted to say that I know them (wrong wording again); I feel them more strongly than the dimension in which we are now exchanging views. Of course, the mind tries to describe it all somehow, and different stories fit more or less, but this is not the point. Sometimes I think that even speculating on this subject is a bit pointless because all we have, is an instrument of mind programmed according to certain axioms and conditions that conceptualizes what it thinks it knows. But what is not done for fun?
One more observation - I've recently noticed an increasingly frequent tendency to rationalize everything by force and perceive it in black-and-white categories. As if that comfort zone had to be defended at all costs.
The last story.
The moment when, as a result of very severe pains in the spine, which put me in bed for six months and put my whole life in question, I took care of myself and started practices that, according to 3 more outstanding neurosurgeons, should lead me, at best, to the wheelchair. Not only did all my symptoms disappear and my spine magically healed, but a whole host of other chronic ailments I've struggled with since I was a child - subsided. Mental problems too. I've never felt better. I gave up all stimulants, alcohol, and cigarettes; my diet is gradually shifting from vegetarianism to veganism despite the warnings of Western medicine. I have not taken any medications for two years. I live intensely. I work in rope access; I climb very actively at quite a decent level. I recently tore the inner meniscus in my right knee. Orthopedic opinion - to be removed or to be stitched. It won't grow back. Too poorly concealed. 2 months of particular squats combined with proper breathing and daily yoga practice, and there is no trace of the injury. After almost a year of intensive Kundalini Kriya practice, I experienced an out-of-body presence twice. The second time was so strong that I didn't want to return. The feeling of lightness, vitality, intensity, aliveness, and complete lack of stream of thoughts and emotions was so liberating that I couldn't convey it. The worst fear I've experienced since I was a child - fear, phobia of pigeons disappeared like fog in a month from this experience. Do I know the answer to any questions? No, none. I often can't say what a limitation or a condition is. Does it exist? Maybe ... One thing I know is when such a border disappears, when anxiety and fear disappear, the feeling of freedom that fills me is at least as good as after a good shit. Well, I exaggerated. 1000x better. But I still love stories .

[vladorion]

1 hour ago, SourceCodo said:

This is such a childish and gate keeping thing to say. 
 

It’s the ultimate cop-out for “If it doesn’t fit with my ideas, it’s wrong… But I don’t have a better answer.”

Comparing cessation to deep sleep as if they are pretty much the same shows he has no idea what a cessation is.

And it's not my idea.

If it was the same as deep sleep then it wouldn't be considered such an important attainment in Buddhism. Everybody would get enlightened by going to sleep at night.

[Kuba Powiertowski]

But the genetic program of my body can switch off my body due to cancer, stroke, Parkinson, of course. And yoga practice has very little to do here, although, to some extent, it has. But in the same way, genetics may have something to do with the expansion of consciousness if it becomes this limitation you want to break with all power of your will.

[vladorion]

5 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

How do you explain somebody who is essentially born enlightened and awakens really early in their practice?

Past life practice / karma.

If the gene theory was correct then spiritually gifted people would have to have spiritually gifted parents/grandparents.

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, vladorion said:

Past life practice / karma.

That could be expressed through genes.

 

1 hour ago, vladorion said:

If the gene theory was correct then spiritually gifted people would have to have spiritually gifted parents/grandparents.

Statistically speaking, yes, but not necessarily. Most traits are polygenic in nature, especially complex traits like personality or general cognitive functioning. Two different genes from mom and dad which didn't add much giftedness in isolation could end up creating a lot of giftedness in the child. Also, just because someone is spiritually gifted doesn't necessarily mean they will be into spirituality, so you might not even know that someone is spiritually gifted in such cases. You first need to be turned on to spirituality and then at least do some practice to see results, unless you're extraordinarily gifted. Look to virtually any spiritual teacher and you'll see that they've practiced a lot.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Kuba Powiertowski said:

But the genetic program of my body can switch off my body due to cancer, stroke, Parkinson, of course. And yoga practice has very little to do here, although, to some extent, it has. But in the same way, genetics may have something to do with the expansion of consciousness if it becomes this limitation you want to break with all power of your will.

If psychiatric conditions have genetic components, then spiritual giftedness surely has genetic components as well. It's not that hard, is it?

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, vladorion said:

If the gene theory was correct then spiritually gifted people would have to have spiritually gifted parents/grandparents.

Many of them do.

The problem with your past lives theory is donkeys.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Leo Gura

[vladorion]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Many of them do.

The problem with your past lives theory is donkeys.

I'm not denying that physical hardware matters. But there's a reason you have the body that you have and not a donkey body.

Edited January 3, 2023 by vladorion

[thisintegrated]

On 02/01/2023 at 1:28 AM, Carl-Richard said:

I've dipped my toes into cessation many times, and it scares me to death  I haven't had a God realization though.

Wait.. what?

We talk about advanced topics here.  I had assumed you were already God-realized, as otherwise these discussions wouldn't make much sense to you.

[Carl-Richard]

59 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Wait.. what?

We talk about advanced topics here.  I had assumed you were already God-realized, as otherwise these discussions wouldn't make much sense to you.

God realization doesn't even mean anything on this forum.

[thisintegrated]

Just now, Carl-Richard said:

God realization doesn't even mean anything on this forum.

Ah, so the platform/format is the issue?

[Carl-Richard]

1 minute ago, thisintegrated said:

Ah, so the platform/format is the issue?

Snake

[Breakingthewall]

4 hours ago, Kuba Powiertowski said:

But the genetic program of my body can switch off my body due to cancer, stroke, Parkinson, of course. And yoga practice has very little to do here, although, to some extent, it has. But in the same way, genetics may have something to do with the expansion of consciousness if it becomes this limitation you want to break with all power of your will.

there is no difference between matter and consciousness. they are distinctions we make because we are unaware of the unreality of reality. It's all a mental construct. genes, broken bones, meditation. There's no difference. 

If, as you say, you want to break that limitation with all your willpower, and your genetics prevent you from doing so, you will resort to psychedelics. to realize that psychedelics are also a mental construction, just like genes, and your willpower 

Btw, you tell interesting histories, thanks for sharing 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Breakingthewall