Why there is no agreement and there is confusion about what is the trurh?

[Yimpa]

1 minute ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Valuing truth is definitely an essential component of it. It is a requirement that understanding truth cannot happen without, but it's not enough.

So when is it enough?

[Michael Jackson]

On 30.12.2022 at 10:56 PM, Someone here said:

Why is that?  I think Truth should be obvious and clear .why almost no two fucking persons agree upon almost any subject (of course I'm exaggerating a bit)? What's the root cause of diversity in opinions in any field, whether its science, religion, philosophy, politics etc? 

Well, almost nobody on this earth is aware of the absolute truth.

All other "truths" are relativistic...

[Gesundheit2]

2 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

So when is it enough?

It's never enough. There are other factors that are also essential in my experience. Factors like suffering, high cognition, high consciousness, understanding self-deception, understanding logical fallacies, willingness to go where others aren't willing to go, variety of experiences/perspectives, etc.

And also there's a factor of luck on top of everything else.

[Cathal]

@Someone here the truth is always now. you are mistaking your direct experience to conveying a concept of truth, in that moment of realization, in the moment of suffering, in the moment of freedom, it's that which is truth (for you). it's nothing more complicated, it your continuous direct experience. the rest is just a concept, a intellectual construction of memory happening in the present moment, you may have had an experience yesterday or a year ago where you think you woke up to a higher truth/an ultimate truth but the truth for you in your individual direct experience of reality is always now. 

 

[Mu_]

On 12/30/2022 at 4:56 PM, Someone here said:

It's almost as if each person from the 7-8 billion people on this planet got their own story and worldview.  Nobody seems to agree upon what is true and what is false. What is moral and what is immoral .what is good and what is bad . 

There are hundreds of religions with hundreds of sects..and each religion claims to be the one and only true path that one should follow in life. And that all other religions are delusional. The priests say Jesus christ is the only way ..I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. -john 14:6.  and the imams claim that the quran and Islam is the only way leading to heaven in the after life . Whoever seeks a way other than Islam,it will never be accepted from them, and in the Hereafter they will be among the losers.-quran :chapter 2:85

Look at motivational speakers ,public intellectuals ,philosophers,thinkers ,scientists etc..everyone is preaching different ideas and ideologies. Everyone is suggesting different ways of approaching life in all its domains. 

Why is that?  I think Truth should be obvious and clear .why almost no two fucking persons agree upon almost any subject (of course I'm exaggerating a bit)? What's the root cause of diversity in opinions in any field, whether its science, religion, philosophy, politics etc? 

And you can tell ..that 90% of people are completely full of shit . They don't have the truth .but they think they do. Everyone is confident that he has the truth .to me ..I refuse dogma and prefer to stay open minded and flexible to entertain all worldviews and not get stuck on one .but that's just me.  either I'm crazy ..or the whole world is crazy .

 

 

What is funny and simultaneously confusing to the mind is that what you quoted is the Truth, confusions of all supposed parties and participants and all. And yet when you see more deeply it’s also seen as none confusing since it’s all there is unfolding. 

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

You can't have happiness and freedom from suffering without knowing the truth . 

You can't know the truth. The truth is not a matter of knowledge, it's the absence of limits. Well, you can know that but it doesn't make any difference. The thing is to dissolve the limits, that are falsehood by definition, and change from finite to infinite processing.

the reality is that we are infinite, the finite is false, so it is not something so rare being infinite. in fact, it is normal. the strange thing is the limited mind, that's why it feels bad always 

[Someone here]

22 hours ago, Yimpa said:

That’s the beauty of life. 
 

As you mature on this journey, you begin to let go of expecting life to be a specific way. You allow all ways (not ignorantly, of course).

Agreed.  I noticed that as people grow up they become less aggressive, less intellectually violent .and more peaceful and surrendered.  

Its almost impossible to find an old person who gives a shit about political debates anymore lol. 

[Someone here]

22 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Valuing truth is definitely an essential component of it. It is a requirement that understanding truth cannot happen without, but it's not enough.

I agree.  In fact ,there is not even an objective truth that we all can agree upon .and that's because there isn't an objective reality. The two are linked together.  Every human being is a whole world onto itself. The universality of truth is a girly childish dream. 

Only with God in the equation who is universal by definition, Man is not infinite and cannot arrive at it by speculation or conjecture. objectivity is not attainable. But whatever truth you come to realize in your own direct experience is true for you specifically. but not belief; one must differentiate these.

[Someone here]

22 hours ago, Michael Jackson said:

Well, almost nobody on this earth is aware of the absolute truth.

False .there are . Absolute truth is not a heavenly otherworldly realm filled with gods and angels .its your direct experience exactly as it is . As simple as that .

Edited January 16, 2023 by Someone here

[Someone here]

21 hours ago, Cathal said:

@Someone here the truth is always now. you are mistaking your direct experience to conveying a concept of truth, in that moment of realization, in the moment of suffering, in the moment of freedom, it's that which is truth (for you). it's nothing more complicated, it your continuous direct experience. the rest is just a concept, a intellectual construction of memory happening in the present moment, you may have had an experience yesterday or a year ago where you think you woke up to a higher truth/an ultimate truth but the truth for you in your individual direct experience of reality is always now. 

 

I agree with you my man . I'm just saying not everyone is conscious enough to recognize that . Don't assume that just because it seems so obvious and clear to you that It must be the case for everyone. 

[Someone here]

21 hours ago, Mu_ said:

What is funny and simultaneously confusing to the mind is that what you quoted is the Truth, confusions of all supposed parties and participants and all. And yet when you see more deeply it’s also seen as none confusing since it’s all there is unfolding. 

Yes ,..it's "all there is unfolding" ..that's the big picture . But I'm talking about relativistic truths . Like for example creationism VS evolution by natural selection.  Why there is debates everywhere around this subject ? Can't we find a bottom line to this debate and know with 100% certainty what's true and what's false regarding this issue or similar to it ?

[Someone here]

21 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

You can't know the truth. The truth is not a matter of knowledge, it's the absence of limits. Well, you can know that but it doesn't make any difference. The thing is to dissolve the limits, that are falsehood by definition, and change from finite to infinite processing.

the reality is that we are infinite, the finite is false, so it is not something so rare being infinite. in fact, it is normal. the strange thing is the limited mind, that's why it feels bad always 

Infinity must include all possible finitude. Otherwise it wouldn't be infinity. 

So we are actually both infinite and finite simultaneously. 

[Yimpa]

12 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Infinity must include all possible finitude. Otherwise it wouldn't be infinity. 

So we are actually both infinite and finite simultaneously. 

True. That’s the irony of this topic. The word “truth” is misspelled “trurh” in the title, but does that make it untrue? Lol. 

[Someone here]

2 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

True. That’s the irony of this topic. The word “truth” is misspelled “trurh” in the title, but does that make it untrue? Lol. 

Oh I didn't notice . Unfortunately the editing function have disappeared because its been few days since this thread was posted . I definitely meant "truth".

 

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

Infinity must include all possible finitude. Otherwise it wouldn't be infinity. 

So we are actually both infinite and finite simultaneously. 

if infinity is the case, there is nothing finite. Any partition of infinity is total infinity. the finite is only appearance, a trick. there is only infinity

[Someone here]

6 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

if infinity is the case, there is nothing finite. Any partition of infinity is total infinity. the finite is only appearance, a trick. there is only infinity

Bro ..look..All of these existential questions can be debated endlessly, and have been debated for centuries. The debate is about different interpretations of the word “infinity ”. So let me ask you how do you know something Is infinite without its opposite (the finite )?

Infinity has been found to be a fantastically useful concept, so mathematicians will continue to use it happily regardless of any eventual outcome of debates around its existence.

My warm recommendation is to stop worrying about the existence of infinity and start learning to understand and work with Truth directly.  Not suggesting that Truth and Infinity are different things. But just a reminder that our aim here is to find Truth ..not to find infinity . Again not suggesting that these are separate. 

 

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

So let me ask you how do you know something Is infinite without its opposite (the finite )?

all spirituality consists in transcending the false appearance, that is, the finite, to realize the truth, that is, the infinite. the infinite is not the opposite of the finite, it is the absolute. There is only infinity, it is one and it is you. it is impossible for it to be anything else. It's something you realize from direct experience, but it's also it's logical. meditation, psychedelics, all this, is simply to break the limits that the mind imposes on us. there is no dispute about the truth. truth=infinite, falsehood=finite. 

but realizing the infinity that you are is not something you can do with the mind, the mind is the barrier that creates the appearance of finiteness. the mind has to be removed from the middle. the mind is a creation, an appearance. the mind is the cosmos, and it's just a special effect.

Edited January 16, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Someone here]

16 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

all spirituality consists in transcending the false appearance, that is, the finite,

Why are you calling it the "false " appearance?  

Appearance is absolutely true .if you appear to be finite then that's literally what is true .that you are finite. 

16 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

the infinite is not the opposite of the finite, it is the absolute. There is only infinity, it is one and it is you. it is impossible for it to be anything else. It's something you realize from direct experience, but it's also it's logical. meditation, psychedelics, all this, is simply to break the limits that the mind imposes on us. there is no dispute about the truth. truth=infinite, falsehood=finite. 

Falsehood doesn't exist. That's what the term implies.  If you make a distinction between Truth and Falsehood then you are falling into duality . If you set the infinite and the finite as opponents of each other ..then you are falling into duality .

I have said that infinity = truth . But you don't start your spiritual path with a preconceived idea that the truth is infinity.  You seek truth, whatever that turns out to be . Maybe you end up discovering the reality is limited .what do you do then? Contradict your direct experience because you’ve been brainwashed that truth equals infinity? 

16 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

but realizing the infinity that you are is not something you can do with the mind, the mind is the barrier that creates the appearance of finiteness. the mind has to be removed from the middle. the mind is a creation, an appearance. the mind is the cosmos, and it's just a special effect.

Without the mind you couldn't type a single word from this post .why are you demonising the mind? 

[Breakingthewall]

22 minutes ago, Someone here said:

your spiritual path with a preconceived idea that the truth is infinity.  You seek truth, whatever that turns out to be . Maybe you end up discovering the reality is limited .what do you do then? Contradict your direct experience because you’ve been brainwashed that truth equals infinity? 

No, because I'm saying that after direct experience, not before. You are right, any brainwashing is a mistake, but some ideas could help the mind to let go the attachment to the form

23 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Falsehood doesn't exist

falsehood is what we call something that appears to be one way but is only an appearance. if you prefer the word appearance, ok.

25 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Without the mind you couldn't type a single word from this post .why are you demonising the mind? 

I'm not demonizing the mind, i just said that you can't realize the infinity with the mind because the mind is an appearance within the infinity. 

[Someone here]

9 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

No, because I'm saying that after direct experience, not before. You are right, any brainwashing is a mistake, but some ideas could help the mind to let go the attachment to the form

Great . So you did experience infinity on 5 meo . Im not here to doubt your experience. I just want to point out  that the word "infinity " is being overused on the forum without understanding what it really means.  Some believe it means the universe is infinitely big in size and that  there is no beginning or end to time ..is that what you mean by virtue of your experience of infinity? 

11 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

falsehood is what we call something that appears to be one way but is only an appearance. if you prefer the word appearance, ok.

I prefer the term illusion.  Just like a mirage in the desert. If you mean by it that something appears differently than what it actually is. 

12 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

I'm not demonizing the mind, i just said that you can't realize the infinity with the mind because the mind is an appearance within the infinity. 

How do you know that? Of course we don’t know. We don't know what's "outside the observable universe”. we’re talking about regions of the universe with no causal connection to our own. Therefore, for all we know, there may be pink unicorns there, or flying spaghetti monsters.but is that what you mean by reality being infinite ?

 I do actually believe that the universe is probably infinite, but that is based on the fact that we see no indications of either edges or wraparound.