Why there is no agreement and there is confusion about what is the trurh?

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, Vladimir said:

@Someone here

The Truth is I am the only one who knows the Truth.

OK. Keep it for yourself. 

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

Division of labor.

??

[Carl-Richard]

1 minute ago, Someone here said:

??

One tribe, one opinion. Many tribes, many opinions. It's a very materialistic analysis, but the way we got there was essentially through the discovery of agriculture, which allowed for a more complex division of labor. Resources accumulated, tribes grew and clashed, civilizations formed, and the different labor forces developed their own little worldviews and opinions on things. The skilled workers got their opinions, the academics got their opinions, the politicians got theirs, etc.

[axiom]

39 minutes ago, Someone here said:

So there is no qualitative difference between animals and humans ? Come on dude. Sell me something more convincing . You make zero sense . 

Why only humans explore the universe and ask for the source of the universe and how we got here ? Why only humans care about art and beauty and mathematics and no animal has that capacity? 

Perhaps because humans have an innate sense of separateness and incompleteness, whereas most animals (perhaps all animals) do not.

Animals live in reality 1:1 (generally speaking). Humans draw diagrams and write descriptions, trying to stake a claim to what we already have. 

Knowledge seems to help in the dream, sure. But when it comes to enlightenment, knowledge veils reality. It does not illuminate it. 

Observe tourists on holiday standing in front of the Great Pyramid and looking at their phone screens to take the perfect snap.

Edited January 1, 2023 by axiom

[Someone here]

37 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

One tribe, one opinion. Many tribes, many opinions. It's a very materialistic analysis, but the way we got there was essentially through the discovery of agriculture, which allowed for a more complex division of labor. Resources accumulated, tribes grew and clashed, civilizations formed, and the different labor forces developed their own little worldviews and opinions on things. The skilled workers got their opinions, the academics got their opinions, the politicians got theirs, etc.

Nice story you got spinning right there ?. 

Or maybe you  should say Regardless of everything else.. Never mind the obvious fact that people are simply individuals, and every individual has his or her own mind, experiences, motives, values, etc and why these factors alone shouldn’t answer the question for anyone is a mystery to me .even if two people had identical characters, they can’t occupy the same location in the universe. So, they can’t help but see the world differently, if they’re watching the same object or event.

Because no two people are alike.

22 minutes ago, axiom said:

Perhaps because humans have an innate sense of separateness and incompleteness, whereas most animals (perhaps all animals) do not.

Animals live in reality 1:1 (generally speaking). Humans draw diagrams and write descriptions, trying to stake a claim to what we already have. 

Knowledge seems to help in the dream, sure. But when it comes to enlightenment, knowledge veils reality. It does not illuminate it. 

Observe tourists on holiday standing in front of the Great Pyramid and looking at their phone screens to take the perfect snap.

Animals also feel separate.  When a lion is chasing a rabbit for his lunch .it  experiences itself as separate from the rabbit . I agree that the sense of self is less likely in animals  but that doesn't make them better than humans in any way .

Animals, always living in the present moment yet trapped by deep habits and lacking intellectual capacity to take up a conceptual spiritual path, spend their entire lives running parallel to enlightened beings, so close to realization, yet infinitely far away.

[axiom]

@Someone here

Apparent intellectual capacity is enough for rabbits to be rabbits, just as it is enough for humans to be humans. 

There is much beauty in human creativity.

But when it comes to enlightenment, human intellectual capacity is often a problem. Metaconsciousness, one of the core attributes humans tend to attribute to themselves, is the essence of separation.

“A conceptual spiritual path” -  no such path is needed. The path is precisely what hides the way.

[Razard86]

On 12/31/2022 at 5:46 AM, Someone here said:

Are you serious bro ? You put Leo in the same sentence as these idiots? It's an insult to Leo's intelligence.  Leo is GOD in the flesh ?. 

 

 

 You are hilarious do you know that? I swear you are Leo's number one fan. Leo has strengths and weaknesses like any character in this game. Also every character is GOD in the flesh what nonsense are you spouting.

[SamC]

Because the truth is that everything is true relatively speaking 

 

[How to be wise]

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

I understand that people are in different stages of cognitive development.  And that leads to various worldviews . But we live now in the Internet era where information is available for everyone.  Why are we still stuck collectively in stage blue and orange (either brainwashed religious nutcases or materialists atheists )?

Because adults don’t change. It’s extremely rare for an adult to grow spirally even by one stage. Our only hope is in the next generation. 

[effortlesslumen]

deep down we all know the "truth"

[Loba]

I don't want to write on these things too often because they throw me off my game, but I wanted to get this out there just once, to posit some different viewpoints and also offer some perspective on this issue.  A lot of people disagree on what Truth is, as there are many ways to come about Truth.  The anatomy of your psychology is complex and unique and so it's expression will be personally tailored to you.  The Truth is not some thing that you can generally follow another person or guide to find, you as the individual have your own personal codex.  Whatever method that feels right should work.  Need to inquire?  Do so.  Want to meditate?  Go for it.  Have the desire to learn the history of something to gain a greater understanding?  World's your oyster.  Truth comes up like flowers growing in soil, with various layers that peek out in different ways and you'll see it in the environment, in art, in people, in music, in life... there is no rigid process or set in stone method.

These things should open up within you as you allow them to.  Like gateways.  And only you have the key to it and no one else can do it for you.  There are so many expressions of Truth, legitimate paths, initiations, paranormal experiences, religious currents of antiquity that you can ride like a wave, natural law.  When people follow their intuition on this, they can unlock "perks", manifestation, siddhis, initiations and whatnot.  You see, to be a conscious creator, you have to learn how to do it within the realm of not infringing on others, deciding for them their lives, and following dishonest currents of dis-ease or anger/fear.  The Truth isn't something you really can argue about or decide for another person or anything like that.  People that debate these things are already missing out on key laws in the nature of the game - like those who reach for the top but don't build upon all the lower levels.  It's like viewing a body as a whole rather than with all it's little components.  The moment you start arguing for your Truth, beyond just sharing your viewpoint you kind of lose it.  It then becomes an "outside-in" way of relating rather than an "inside-out" process.  This is normalized here and a lot of people fall into it, but it's not as beneficial as perhaps viewing different sources has having portions of the puzzle.  Once you experience the Truth once, generally you can parse this stuff out with some practice, it begins to work with you and through you in different manners.

To find Truth, in my lived experience - you have to meet it in the middle from the path you've chosen for yourself and at some point everything will just drop, and you might be left with your main numero uno fear to contend with.  If you move through it, sit with it without labeling or narrating or thinking, and allow peace, appreciation, gratitude and perhaps an awareness of the life force running through you - it's sort of like extending a hand towards God, in which this source energy will then be able to do the same for you.  These debates, discussions, distractions just add more crust over all of it.

"Wipe on, wipe off, essentially."

I've found that you can use religion if you do it authentically.  You invite it to teach you personally, let it run through you and it will clear you out and give you a perspective and gifts that you didn't know you could obtain.  Instead of just doing it on your own, you are working with literal age old masters.  Say, you want to manifest something and you keep creating a Frankenstein monster in your process, well the rules of religion can allow a person to clear out the unhelpful energy that is creating a disruptive reality.  It can give you the structure you need to create something for yourself, for other people and to do it in a way that does not infringe on anything - a good rule of thumb - give away much more than you get.  The moment you get a promise of something, don't hold onto it, let it go, and immediately begin to work on pooling goodwill into the environment.  Almost like patching up holes in what you see around you.

"As above, so below."

Don't worry about other people's interpretations, just go within and open it up, clear it out and see what you get.  Generally it will be something you don't expect, out of left field and more often than not pretty sweet!

It all comes down to you, comes down to you
Down, down, down, it all comes down

What is it that you seek?
In your mind, you must be it
Shine your light when you see it
Like the flame at the top of your head
And to your mind, a light will find its way from heaven
But once you find it, can't unwind it with your head on
So listen to your heart and be the beat you're beating
'Cause nothing ever changes 'til it changes when you be it

The one, the one, the one, the one
You are the one

It all comes down to you
It all comes down
Heaven in the sky to the Earth below
Anywhere that you go
It all comes down to you
It all comes down
Heaven in your eye from the Earth below
Anywhere that you go
It's down, down, down to you

Is it you? Is it me?
What is God for a heathen?
What's the God you believe in?
Is it fame? Is it– (money, money, money, money, money, money)
One cannot live on bread alone and you can feel it
Something inside you pulling you into the feeling
So listen to your heart and be the beat you're beating
'Cause nothing ever changes till it changes when you be it

You are the one

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

Because no two people are alike.

No two people are alike, but two people who live in an isolated pre-agricultural tribe will be very much alike each other, and the type of disagreements you're thinking about would probably not occur. So the defining causal moment that lead to the phenomena in question could certainly be the invention of agriculture, as ridiculous as that sounds.

Edited January 1, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[LastThursday]

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

23 hours ago, LastThursday said:

A wild zebra knows exactly how to approach life: eat grass and run from lions. It's no different for humans: eat, sleep, shit, fuck (if you're lucky). It's only our rampant imaginations that think we need to do anything else.

So there is no qualitative difference between animals and humans ? Come on dude. Sell me something more convincing . You make zero sense . 

Why only humans explore the universe and ask for the source of the universe and how we got here ? Why only humans care about art and beauty and mathematics and no animal has that capacity? 

You're conflating existential matters (why am I here?) with finding the "right" way to live life. They're two completely separate things.

The only Truth about living life is survival, it's the only thing we all have in common. Any other notion of how to approach life is just a fairy tale. Because if it wasn't, everyone would already be living that life. We're not all mathematicians and artists because they aren't the one true way to approach life.

As far as existential matters go, then yes you're correct, we humans have the capacity to go there, animals probably don't. So maybe it's possible to find a Truth behind existence. My take is that the only Truth you'll find is that all this exists - nothing more - but I'm happy to find out different.

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, LastThursday said:

The only Truth about living life is survival, it's the only thing we all have in common

Yes , survival, but not the survival of the individual but of the collective, of the tribe. the human individual is nothing, just a cog in a machine, the same as an ant or a bee. language is the means and the collective ego the result. If you remove the collective ego from the human, that is, all the software that has been downloaded through language, what remains? an empty shell with inarticulate impulses, incapable of even the most basic 

That's we are trying, free ourselves of the collective ego, but keeping his functionality to use it at will. So we could be a totally free being. Free of the instinct, because our genetic instinct is basic and weak, and free of the collective ego. so what's left? The naked reality. Pure Existence 

 

Edited January 1, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Razard86]

3 hours ago, Loba said:

I don't want to write on these things too often because they throw me off my game, but I wanted to get this out there just once, to posit some different viewpoints and also offer some perspective on this issue.  A lot of people disagree on what Truth is, as there are many ways to come about Truth.  The anatomy of your psychology is complex and unique and so it's expression will be personally tailored to you.  The Truth is not some thing that you can generally follow another person or guide to find, you as the individual have your own personal codex.  Whatever method that feels right should work.  Need to inquire?  Do so.  Want to meditate?  Go for it.  Have the desire to learn the history of something to gain a greater understanding?  World's your oyster.  Truth comes up like flowers growing in soil, with various layers that peek out in different ways and you'll see it in the environment, in art, in people, in music, in life... there is no rigid process or set in stone method.

These things should open up within you as you allow them to.  Like gateways.  And only you have the key to it and no one else can do it for you.  There are so many expressions of Truth, legitimate paths, initiations, paranormal experiences, religious currents of antiquity that you can ride like a wave, natural law.  When people follow their intuition on this, they can unlock "perks", manifestation, siddhis, initiations and whatnot.  You see, to be a conscious creator, you have to learn how to do it within the realm of not infringing on others, deciding for them their lives, and following dishonest currents of dis-ease or anger/fear.  The Truth isn't something you really can argue about or decide for another person or anything like that.  People that debate these things are already missing out on key laws in the nature of the game - like those who reach for the top but don't build upon all the lower levels.  It's like viewing a body as a whole rather than with all it's little components.  The moment you start arguing for your Truth, beyond just sharing your viewpoint you kind of lose it.  It then becomes an "outside-in" way of relating rather than an "inside-out" process.  This is normalized here and a lot of people fall into it, but it's not as beneficial as perhaps viewing different sources has having portions of the puzzle.  Once you experience the Truth once, generally you can parse this stuff out with some practice, it begins to work with you and through you in different manners.

To find Truth, in my lived experience - you have to meet it in the middle from the path you've chosen for yourself and at some point everything will just drop, and you might be left with your main numero uno fear to contend with.  If you move through it, sit with it without labeling or narrating or thinking, and allow peace, appreciation, gratitude and perhaps an awareness of the life force running through you - it's sort of like extending a hand towards God, in which this source energy will then be able to do the same for you.  These debates, discussions, distractions just add more crust over all of it.

"Wipe on, wipe off, essentially."

I've found that you can use religion if you do it authentically.  You invite it to teach you personally, let it run through you and it will clear you out and give you a perspective and gifts that you didn't know you could obtain.  Instead of just doing it on your own, you are working with literal age old masters.  Say, you want to manifest something and you keep creating a Frankenstein monster in your process, well the rules of religion can allow a person to clear out the unhelpful energy that is creating a disruptive reality.  It can give you the structure you need to create something for yourself, for other people and to do it in a way that does not infringe on anything - a good rule of thumb - give away much more than you get.  The moment you get a promise of something, don't hold onto it, let it go, and immediately begin to work on pooling goodwill into the environment.  Almost like patching up holes in what you see around you.

"As above, so below."

Don't worry about other people's interpretations, just go within and open it up, clear it out and see what you get.  Generally it will be something you don't expect, out of left field and more often than not pretty sweet!

It all comes down to you, comes down to you
Down, down, down, it all comes down

What is it that you seek?
In your mind, you must be it
Shine your light when you see it
Like the flame at the top of your head
And to your mind, a light will find its way from heaven
But once you find it, can't unwind it with your head on
So listen to your heart and be the beat you're beating
'Cause nothing ever changes 'til it changes when you be it

The one, the one, the one, the one
You are the one

It all comes down to you
It all comes down
Heaven in the sky to the Earth below
Anywhere that you go
It all comes down to you
It all comes down
Heaven in your eye from the Earth below
Anywhere that you go
It's down, down, down to you

Is it you? Is it me?
What is God for a heathen?
What's the God you believe in?
Is it fame? Is it– (money, money, money, money, money, money)
One cannot live on bread alone and you can feel it
Something inside you pulling you into the feeling
So listen to your heart and be the beat you're beating
'Cause nothing ever changes till it changes when you be it

You are the one

I agree with everything you said except this part, debate is a key function of human history and its actually law in nature called division. All finite forms engage in some form of conflict, bacteria fight against other bacteria and other cells, same with viruses. Lions hunt antelope etc.. Debate was a key function for me growing up in me obtaining knowledge. It taught me how to analyze, find information and come to a conclusion. Later on it helped me learn my opponents perspective, which also led me to discover bias, and ultimately through the years led me to Spirituality.

So Conflict is a key component that can lead you to truth. I notice the feminine has a bias against this and so always tries to push for unification whereas the feminine also unconsciously expresses this same masculine trait. But I divulge other than that masterful post I love it!!

 

[Someone here]

15 hours ago, axiom said:

@Someone here

Apparent intellectual capacity is enough for rabbits to be rabbits, just as it is enough for humans to be humans. 

There is much beauty in human creativity.

But when it comes to enlightenment, human intellectual capacity is often a problem. Metaconsciousness, one of the core attributes humans tend to attribute to themselves, is the essence of separation.

“A conceptual spiritual path” -  no such path is needed. The path is precisely what hides the way.

You are falling into the neo advaita trap my friend. 

If enlightenment is ‘knowing and being yourself’, then the easiest path undeniably turns out to be ‘probing and discovering yourself’.

Bhagwan Ramana Maharishi calls it ‘Atma Vichara’ or ‘Self-inquiry’, and He said over and over again that this is the Direct Path.

If by chance, you find this direct and easiest path difficult, then you are left with no options other than to take a call on the other paths by others sages .

It still seems wiser to begin from ‘you’, and make amends, if you should, as you move on the path.
That’s the easiest path as it is the sanest, to begin with.

[LastThursday]

11 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yes , survival, but not the survival of the individual but of the collective

That's nearly right. It's survival at all levels, the individual, the tribe, genes, culture, ecosystem and so on. Each different level has an identity that it maintains against chaos.

[Someone here]

15 hours ago, Razard86 said:

 You are hilarious do you know that? I swear you are Leo's number one fan. Leo has strengths and weaknesses like any character in this game. Also every character is GOD in the flesh what nonsense are you spouting.

Nope .Leo is so much higher consciousness than these human chimps . The guy gets information downloaded into his mind in real time as he speaks to  the camera for hours on end . The dude is in a whole new level. Have you awoken to alien love yet ?

[Someone here]

14 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

No two people are alike, but two people who live in an isolated pre-agricultural tribe will be very much alike each other, and the type of disagreements you're thinking about would probably not occur. So the defining causal moment that lead to the phenomena in question could certainly be the invention of agriculture, as ridiculous as that sounds.

If we take two people from different cultures, different religious beliefs, different agriculture, etc and survey them on whether the earth is round or flat? Would you agree that their answers will vary depending on these factors that I mentioned? 

[Someone here]

13 hours ago, LastThursday said:

You're conflating existential matters (why am I here?) with finding the "right" way to live life. They're two completely separate things.

The only Truth about living life is survival, it's the only thing we all have in common. Any other notion of how to approach life is just a fairy tale. Because if it wasn't, everyone would already be living that life. We're not all mathematicians and artists because they aren't the one true way to approach life.

As far as existential matters go, then yes you're correct, we humans have the capacity to go there, animals probably don't. So maybe it's possible to find a Truth behind existence. My take is that the only Truth you'll find is that all this exists - nothing more - but I'm happy to find out different.

And I said I agree with you about the last point .

But still..humans can and will keep discovering more and more from the universe. There is no limit to the human curiosity. Look at how science advanced exponentially in the last century.  Whereas animal's curiosity is all about food and sex .

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

If we take two people from different cultures, different religious beliefs, different agriculture, etc and survey them on whether the earth is round or flat? Would you agree that their answers will vary depending on these factors that I mentioned? 

Yes, because those are different tribes.