I am a materialist. Convince me with the idea that I am more than a body

[r0ckyreed]

On 1/1/2023 at 11:01 AM, Razard86 said:

I can hack Grand Theft Auto and make the player character's head be opened and his brain is shown. Is his brain generating his reality?

All analogies are limited.  Everything depends on something else.  But there must be a point in which there is something that doesn't depend on anything.  A game depends on a console and tv to exist.  There is no GTA V without a TV and game console.  There is no picture without a camera.  There is no consciousness without a brain.  There is no brain without an Earth, star, universe etc.  There has to be a point in which there is a foundational energy or Force like in Star Wars that holds everything together and keeps it all in balance.  All dualities are contained within The Force even the duality between the material and immaterial.  If my Consciousness is God, then why is it dependent on food, water, brain, biology, genes, etc.? Of course I am perceiving all of these within consciousness and can never perceive their true absolute nature.  

Edit: Please note that I am agnostic about all of this stuff.  I am merely trying to steel man the materialists position.  I feel like we get a lot of straw mans of the materialist worldview from Leo.  I am merely trying to present the best arguments for that worldview which I think I have done so already.  My ultimate position is that I don't know anything except that consciousness exists.  Maybe consciousness is an illusion and produced by brains and nervous system, but I cannot doubt the fact that consciousness appears to exist.  I am aware of this sentence so that presupposes that I am conscious of it.  But I could be totally wrong in assuming that my conscious experience exists independently of the world of phenomenon.

Edited January 2, 2023 by r0ckyreed

[Jodistrict]

The materialistic philosophers, based on the assumption that conscousness is generated by the brain, then say that consciousness is an epiphenomenon.   That means a secondary by-product, and that your consciousness actually doesn’t exist.  Think about that.  The materialistic assumption is that what is most real to you – your experience – doesn’t actually exist.  You are just an imagination somehow generated by a piece of meat.   Contemplate that.  Does that explanation satisfy you?

[spiritual memes]

26 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

Well. If Solipsism is true, the person does not have conscious experience and is like a robot.  They have no qualia.  Their brain is like the operating system that produces the illusion of conscious experience.  I cannot know for certain whether other people have consciousness.  Everything I know about another being is objectified.  An animal is an object in my consciousness.  In my subjective experience, I am the only subject there is.  But I seriously doubt that I am the only subject.  If you are actually conscious right now and are not just some philosophical zombie or dream character of mine, then I could never possibly know, but that doesn't mean that metaphysical solipsism is true.  Epistemological solipsism is the case, but metaphysical solipsism is still a big question mark.  There are so many limits to my epistemology that I am always limited to my own point of view.

who said I was a solipsist? I am an analytical idealist. I believe that matter is the extrinsic appearance of consciousness when viewed from a third perspective. This view bypasses the hard problem of consciousness and is more parsimonious since it does not infer a category of experience outside of what we directly experience.

[ryandesreu]

A surgeon cuts a hole in a patient's skull so that the patient's brain is visible. He then holds a mirror up to the patient so that the patient can see his own brain. The patient sees his brain. His eyes light up. He brings his thumb and forefinger up to the hole. He plucks his brain right out of his head, pops it into his mouth and says "there's that piece of gum I been looking for!"

[r0ckyreed]

4 minutes ago, spiritual memes said:

who said I was a solipsist? I am an analytical idealist. I believe that matter is the extrinsic appearance of consciousness when viewed from a third perspective. This view bypasses the hard problem of consciousness and is more parsimonious since it does not infer a category of experience outside of what we directly experience.

Deep down. We are all epistemological solipsists.  We cannot know for certain anything existing outside of consciousness.  Our epistemology already limits us to all being solipsists.  Of course, you can deny you are a solipsist, but the reality is that you can't know anything outside of your consciousness, which makes us all solipsists.  We cannot know if we are dreaming or not right now with absolute certainty.  Anything else like dualism, physicalism, idealism, etc. is all just a game you are playing.  The truth is that I can only know that consciousness exists and nothing else.  If you exist, then I assume that your epistemology is similar to mine.  So actually, I cannot state the claim I made in my second sentence because I do not know that.  But I assume you exist and assume that your consciousness works like mine.

[spiritual memes]

2 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

Deep down. We are all epistemological solipsists.  We cannot know for certain anything existing outside of consciousness.  Our epistemology already limits us to all being solipsists.  Of course, you can deny you are a solipsist, but the reality is that you can't know anything outside of your consciousness, which makes us all solipsists.  We cannot know if we are dreaming or not right now with absolute certainty.  Anything else like dualism, physicalism, idealism, etc. is all just a game you are playing.  The truth is that I can only know that consciousness exists and nothing else.  If you exist, then I assume that your epistemology is similar to mine.  So actually, I cannot state the claim I made in my second sentence because I do not know that.  But I assume you exist and assume that your consciousness works like mine.

epistemologically yes but ontologically no. which is what i was talking about

[r0ckyreed]

9 minutes ago, ryandesreu said:

He then holds a mirror up to the patient so that the patient can see his own brain. The patient sees his brain.

How do we know the patient exists and can see?

@spiritual memes Gotcha.  I was referring to epistemological solipsism. Sorry I didn't make that clear from the start.

Here is an interesting article for you all:  https://qz.com/866352/scientists-say-your-mind-isnt-confined-to-your-brain-or-even-your-body

Edited January 2, 2023 by r0ckyreed

[PeaceOut96]

You assume that there is a world and that you are a being in that world. There is a object world that is independent of you and your experience, that is fundamentally the metaphysics of matrialistic science today. The brain generates conciousness that means your subjective experience is caused by a matrialistic process. But what is a subjective experience than? Science regonizes that you as a person has feelings, thoughts, ideas, interpretations so basically your mind exist and it is caused by brain, which we clearified is an objetive process. But how can a objective process cause a subjective experience? Directly that means that your brain is recieving data from your environment later giving you the experience of what is happening in your field of experience. But where is the disctintion between whats truly happening and a hallucination you can have. Both are generated by your own brain? How can the brain give you an experience that is "incorrect". Does it mean that the brain is already hallucinating all of your experiences according to science? Because it is the brain that is the generator of consciousness according to matrialism. What is real than? See I can go on, but to deconstruct ALL beliefs, assumptions and perspectives is what true spirituality is about. Only you can do the work, there isn't anyone that can convince you of anything, because that would only mean that you change your perspective/belief to another one. Drop this game and investigate. 

 

[r0ckyreed]

6 minutes ago, PeaceOut96 said:

You assume that there is a world and that you are a being in that world.

By our nature, to survive is to assume that there is a world that we are in.  All beings have this fundamental assumption in an external world whether they are aware of it or not.

[PeaceOut96]

Just now, r0ckyreed said:

By our nature, to survive is to assume that there is a world that we are in.  All beings have this fundamental assumption in an external world whether they are aware of it or not.

It is indeed part of the game of life. Nothing wrong it with, and it is basically a survival mechanism of the mind. But it doesn't make it true. Because survival is a game you cannot win. 

[Thought Art]

Smoke a gram of DMT over the next 12 months. Obviously dosing safely. 

[Kuba Powiertowski]

@Panteranegra no one can convince you. Either you rediscover one day who you are in this so-called life or incarnation or you'll be back closer to your original state after "leaving" this so-called "material body".