Can Ken Wilber be considered as contemporary underappreciated genius?

[Rasheed]

Can Ken Wilber be considered as contemporary underappreciated genius? 

Truth be told Ken Wilber basically accomplished lifetimes of work and his work stands out from every single other psychologist, philosopher and I consider him to be one of the greatest western intellectuals of all time. He is probably the greatest western psychologist of all time, period. I haven't read all major western psychologists books yet but which ones I read, they do not come even close, including Freud and Jung. I am asking this question because compared to J. Peterson, S. Harris, Ken Wilber is not popular like them though  Ken Wilber is 10x more developed and conscious than them...No disrespect to any of these intellectuals. psychologists and philosophers but still, they don't even come close to Wilber, probably I am biased but I am trying to remain as objective as I can and I still think that. Maybe I am wrong, Idk. 

What do you think? 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Rasheed

[Leo Gura]

Yup

[Oeaohoo]

No. You are just comparing Wilber with the wrong people. Wilber’s real predecessors are not Carl Junk and Sigmund Fraud, but people like Ananda Coomaraswamy, René Guénon and Frithjof Schuon. Frankly, he is a pale mediocrity in comparison.

Wilber just took the Perennial Philosophy and mixed it with the the inconsequential “discoveries” of the profane and degenerate world. I have been reading him recently and I never realised how blatant this was.

The reason he is little known is because his theory is pointless, an irrelevant attempt to “integrate” the essential and the inconsequential.

[Oeaohoo]

As to the supposed innovations of Wilber, it must be acknowledged immediately that every Tradition was integral. Christendom contained contemplative practises and Theology alongside the sciences of the Trivium and Quadrivium. These were all unified by their animating principle, the Christian Tradition. If you are hostile to Christianity as many are today, this is equally true for the other Traditions; consider for example the six astika or branches of study within Hinduism. As another example, Aristotle wrote on Biology, Physics, Metaphysics, The Soul, Politics, Ethics, Poetics, Rhetoric, and so on, recognising the inter-connectedness of all these domains; and he didn’t just compile other people’s thoughts together into pointless “meta-systems” like Wilber… He actually thought things through from first principles!

So-called “Integral” is just a desperate attempt to reintegrate the different domains of knowledge, after they had been fatally fragmented by the decrepitude of late-stage Kali Yuga (or what Wilber, in his willed ignorance of traditional cosmology, calls “modernity and postmodernity”), which is indeed characterised by what Guénon described as a “dispersion in multiplicity”.

In short, there is nothing new here. Just another moronic American self-help “guru” who wants to delude himself into believing that he is a deep, important and innovative thinker.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Oeaohoo

[Nilsi]

24 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

As to the supposed innovations of Wilber, it must be acknowledged immediately that every Tradition was integral. Christendom contained contemplative practises and Theology alongside the sciences of the Trivium and Quadrivium. These were all unified by their animating principle, the Christian Tradition. If you are hostile to Christianity as many are today, this is equally true for the other Traditions; consider for example the six astika or branches of study within Hinduism. As another example, Aristotle wrote on Biology, Physics, Metaphysics, The Soul, Politics, Ethics, Poetics, Rhetoric, and so on, recognising the inter-connectedness of all these domains; and he didn’t just compile other people’s thoughts together into pointless “meta-systems” like Wilber… He actually thought things through from first principles!

So-called “Integral” is just a desperate attempt to reintegrate the different domains of knowledge, after they had been fatally fragmented by the decrepitude of late-stage Kali Yuga (or what Wilber, in his willed ignorance of traditional cosmology, calls “modernity and postmodernity”), which is indeed characterised by what Guénon described as a “dispersion in multiplicity”.

In short, there is nothing new here. Just another moronic American self-help “guru” who wants to delude himself into believing that he is a deep, important and innovative thinker.

Acknowledging and integrating states and stages of development; the shadow; the four quadrants - that is not trivial at all and doesn't exist in any philosophy prior to Wilber.

You can dismiss this as a "pointless meta-system," but the point is that this integration affords the emergence of a higher way of being that you just wouldn't get from subscribing to Christianity or Buddhism or some other belief system.

[Oeaohoo]

22 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

emergence of a higher way of being

There he is again!  If you want to spend your time in the Dynamic Wave of Emergent Synergy Fields, suit yourself. To me, it’s just obvious drivel.

The main thing that has struck me reading Wilber is that his model is completely backwards. At the centre of the “Holarchy” is not matter and physics but spirit. Every other level of manifestation is a lesser emanation from this centre, the divine Heart. The soul is a lesser emanation of spirit, the mind is a lesser emanation of the soul, and the body is a lesser emanation of the mind… Pure matter is the most peripheral manifestation of consciousness. As such, it should be equivalent to the outward circumference of the “Holarchy”. To place pure matter at the centre of the “Holarchy” is simply ridiculous, as can be demonstrated by the simple question: what is the centre of your being?

This is obvious to anyone who really understands that this universe is a Creation. The essential problem here is that, so as to integrate Tradition with modern depravity, Wilber is forced to look at life from the merely human point of view, as opposed to looking at it sub specie interioritatis (from the inner point of view). From this point of view, there can be no question of emergence: instead, as I have already said, everything that exists is an emanation of the One.

[Oeaohoo]

There is also a glaring contradiction throughout Wilber’s writing: whilst claiming on the one-hand that history is a progressive evolution from matter to spirit, he simultaneously acknowledges that modernity has systematically reduced all of reality to a “flat-land” in which all that exists is matter?! This makes absolutely no sense.

[Nilsi]

3 hours ago, Oeaohoo said:

There he is again!  If you want to spend your time in the Dynamic Wave of Emergent Synergy Fields, suit yourself. To me, it’s just obvious drivel.

The main thing that has struck me reading Wilber is that his model is completely backwards. At the centre of the “Holarchy” is not matter and physics but spirit. Every other level of manifestation is a lesser emanation from this centre, the divine Heart. The soul is a lesser emanation of spirit, the mind is a lesser emanation of the soul, and the body is a lesser emanation of the mind… Pure matter is the most peripheral manifestation of consciousness. As such, it should be equivalent to the outward circumference of the “Holarchy”. To place pure matter at the centre of the “Holarchy” is simply ridiculous, as can be demonstrated by the simple question: what is the centre of your being?

This is obvious to anyone who really understands that this universe is a Creation. The essential problem here is that, so as to integrate Tradition with modern depravity, Wilber is forced to look at life from the merely human point of view, as opposed to looking at it sub specie interioritatis (from the inner point of view). From this point of view, there can be no question of emergence: instead, as I have already said, everything that exists is an emanation of the One.

He talks about exactly this in "Spectrum of Consciousness" at length.

I still don't get how involution contradicts emergence and no one is suggesting that Spirit is not fundamental.

There can still emerge new ways of being, that are phylo- and ontogentically higher and more inclusive than anything we know of (precisely, because they are closer to Spirit as such).

[Nilsi]

3 hours ago, Oeaohoo said:

There is also a glaring contradiction throughout Wilber’s writing: whilst claiming on the one-hand that history is a progressive evolution from matter to spirit, he simultaneously acknowledges that modernity has systematically reduced all of reality to a “flat-land” in which all that exists is matter?! This makes absolutely no sense.

How so? 

You are conflating what he would call material (as level), with the individual-exterior/it (as dimension).

Edited December 29, 2022 by Nilsi

[Leo Gura]

@Oeaohoo Notice your obnoxious manner.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Nilsi]

This is a fair criticism of Ken Wilber "from above" @Oeaohoo

[Oeaohoo]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

@Oeaohoo Notice your obnoxious manner.

As if I haven’t noticed it!  As if it isn’t carefully cultivated… 

Notice how the modern pseudo-intellectual class is more concerned with nice manners than the pursuit of truth.

@Nilsi Never mind… It’s clear you aren’t really willing to engage with ideas outside of this progressive evolutionist wannabe-deep-thinker thought bubble. No point pretending otherwise. 

This will always be the perfect parody of all of these idiots:

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Oeaohoo

[Carl-Richard]

@Oeaohoo Never leave this forum 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Oeaohoo said:

As if I haven’t noticed it!  As if it isn’t carefully cultivated… 

Notice how the modern pseudo-intellectual class is more concerned with nice manners than the pursuit of truth.

You are full of crap.

[Nilsi]

9 hours ago, Oeaohoo said:

 

@Nilsi Never mind… It’s clear you aren’t really willing to engage with ideas outside of this progressive evolutionist wannabe-deep-thinker thought bubble. No point pretending otherwise. 

 

 

I would, but you're not willing to speak in a language I understand, so what can I do?

You're gaslighting me with fancy language, as far as I'm concerned.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Nilsi

[StarStruck]

He will be remembered as the Jung of our time.

[Oeaohoo]

If it were up to me, we would bring back the ancient practice of anonymity: then there could be no question of obsessing over “the work of Ken Wilber”, with all of the vanity and irrelevancy that this entails; it would simply be a question of upholding truth and denouncing falsehood.

On 30/12/2022 at 1:15 AM, Leo Gura said:

You are full of crap.

Just stick to what you are good at, Leo: taking drugs and bragging about how “Awake” you are, and how “not Awake” everyone else is; leave the complex thought to us Stage Yellow Systems Thinkers! Stick to regurgitating the same old inane drivel, pretending to explain all of existence by reducing it to “survival” and some colour-coded stages of Spiral Progress. Stick to denigrating everything other than your so-called “teachings” as “petty human bullshit”, whilst telling people to “think for themselves” and chastising them whenever they dare to think differently from you. Stick to boasting about having transcended all systems of human authority whilst sucking the tit of TYT and CNN like the good little bug-man that you are. Your followers are so stupid, as they must to be to follow someone as stupid as you, that they will probably never tire of it…

On 30/12/2022 at 9:07 AM, Nilsi said:

I would, but you're not willing to speak in a language I understand, so what can I do?

You're gaslighting me with fancy language, as far as I'm concerned.

Hahaha…  When all else fails, you idiots will always have the accusation of “toxic gaslighting” to fall back on! I sincerely apologise for my “toxic gaslighting”, blaspheming your precious idols: Ken Schillber, Lex Fraudman, Daniel Schmachtenbullshit… Funny how none of you have any objection to trouncing on Christ and the Buddha, but whenever someone criticises the likes of Schillber, Fraudman and Schmachtenbullshit you frantically rush to their defence… One more aspect of the contemporary pseudo-religion.

23 hours ago, StarStruck said:

He will be remembered as the Jung of our time.

He won’t be remembered at all. The Global American Empire is doomed to collapse, from insanity within and hostility without, and Schillber’s vain and inconsequential work will perish with it. Everything that he has taught will be reduced to a pile of dust before you know it. This is all extremely obvious to anyone who doesn’t have a vested interest in not seeing it… For all their talk of having transcended the biases that “survival” imposes, it would seem that most people here are entirely blinded by their own preferences. 

If Schillber is remembered, he will indeed be remembered as the Junk of our time.

[UnbornTao]

@Oeaohoo Thanks for your input.

I suggest checking out the creation vs destruction video.

Edited January 1, 2023 by UnbornTao

[Breakingthewall]

7 hours ago, Oeaohoo said:

He won’t be remembered at all. The Global American Empire is doomed to collapse, from insanity within and hostility without,

all your speech is very beautiful and looks very cultivated, but its essence is: reactionary

[A_v_E]

@Oeaohoo  you right, wilber "made sense" ( or curiosity maybe ) for me, up til I reached 24 years old or something, I then met more "real life". I read / audio listened while drawing 4 or 5 of his books, listened multiple interviews.

 

right now I only trust powerful meme, humans are risible to believe in, every nodes is pathetic to hold as "solid", destroy all idols.

thing is I always played with the 1% of artist in society this kind of non sense can't hold long term.

very high IQ mixed with a tons of chaos, when you dwell in chaos as the norm, you understand all those simplified models only works in meme bubble that are relatively fragile and only worked in a limited sequence/frame.
they were a good way to perceive life for ken, but they are irrelevant in the face of reality.


 that indeed doesn't intake emergence and expanding of the universe / cosmic inflation that also impact at the macrocosmic level if you observe the dynamic of reality, it oblitera mathematical laws and biology of complex system thesis model. ( I don't even have the names, because I intuited those models, and I've no pleasure in being the first in the class to call dibs on relative integer of meaning, once I know, I know, I m not really a communicator, what interest me is pure pure knowing beyond framing. )

at high level of cognition speaking become so non sense, and you understand communication is almost absolutely futile that you turn what the midwit call " a troll " just because fuck it, they are boring anyway to not get fucking shit about the relative of their sequences.

 

if your role model is ken wilber, you really lost in mind salad forever, he is a good boat for a little ride, to just to study how hard can go a complex deluded mind, that's a bit sad, but there is worst to waste your life away.

It's not all falsity, maybe the only thing he was truly right to repeat "everyone may hold a part of the truth".
best advice I didn't discard from him and maybe still hold, but not even sure than this is coming from "him", probably rebranded.

 

my french teacher native, he noted me 20/20, his note was : you had a fucking bad grammar if I noted it, you would be a 0.
 but you had the best narrative from a mile away over others, so fuck I had to respect. ( this is a true story, I still respect him for opening my mind on how to play the game. )

what does it means : from this day I understood one thing, if your mind feeling is aimed to like only the taste of shit over the taste of fruit, you can't do anything about it.
 

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by A_v_E