Leo Gura’s false assessment about Muhammad

[shahryar]

Leo Gura’s false assessment about Muhammad

I would like to first acknowledge that to me Leo Gura is the best teacher I’ve ever had and a dear brother, considering his recent episodes on conservative and liberal mindset I’ve seen some false notions about Muhammad being a spiritual figure like buddha. as an ex Muslim who lives in Iran I would like to argue that if you read history of Islam, Muhammad was a “Zen devil” at best, in fact he could be used as the definition of it cause he had some spiritual awakenings in a  cave near Mekka and started preaching verses of “good” and as Leo gura would say “greater Jihad” at first when he was not in position of power, but immediately after he migrated to Medina and took power he started his Lesser Jihad fighting more than 60 wars and attacked many Caravans as an act of robbery, here is the following you must know about what a Zen devil does after taking power

1-Muhammad had slaves and Quran allows slavery

2-muhammd had 9 wives (against his own law of Muslims not being allowed to have more than 4 wives) among them: a child aged 6 (Ayesha), a woman forced to marry him after her husband and father got killed by Muhammad’s army, and his stepson’s wife who was forced to divorce his stepson, a wealthy woman way older than him,sugar mummy(Khadija).

3.Muhammad ordered beheading hundreds of men of Jewish Banu Qurayza tribe for not helping Muslims

4.Muhammad may have had some direct experiences himself, but he didn’t want anyone else to have so by stating that he is the last prophet (meaning no one else can have that experience). he preached following scripture not direct experience, any form of real spiritual Islam like Sufism was created later by other people
 

Edited December 25, 2022 by shahryar

[Gesundheit2]

That's just stage Red liberalism. Don't blame him, blame his environment. The other option was to remain a conservative and conserve the status quo and then get slaughtered by another tribe. That's just the way it used to be back then.

Edited December 25, 2022 by Gesundheit2

[shahryar]

25 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

That's just stage Red liberalism. Don't blame him, blame his environment. The other option was to remain a conservative and conserve the status quo and then get slaughtered by another tribe. That's just the way it used to be back then.

yes, you’re right but a staged red liberal should not be mistaken with stage turquoise Buddha, its not a matter of blame or judgement it’s a matter of one’s development stage assessment which you assessed correctly as opposed to Leo, by the way the term “back then” is not a good excuse for low level of development because we had Aristotle and Plato a thousand year before Muhammad but yea environment had its impact

Edited December 25, 2022 by shahryar

[Gesundheit2]

@shahryar What makes you think Buddha was Turquoise? Where do you see Turquoise in his teachings? I think he was early Green at best. Most of his followers are Blue or Green at best, and Muhammad's are mostly Purple and Blue. And much of their teachings are the same.

Aristotle and Plato are philosophers. They were not rulers. You're comparing apples and oranges here. Compare Muhammad to The Great Alexander or whoever ruled their land in their time, and you might have a point.

[Ulax]

21 minutes ago, shahryar said:

yes, you’re right but a staged red liberal should not be mistaken with stage turquoise Buddha, its not a matter of blame or judgement it’s a matter of one’s development stage assessment which you assessed correctly as opposed to Leo, by the way the term “back then” is not a good excuse for low level of development because we had Aristotle and Plato a thousand year before Muhammad but yea environment had its impact

@shahryar Imo, spiral dynamics doesn't really reflect awakening

[omar30]

@shahryar

All your info here is false and biased Sufism existed before islam they embraced islam later on, the teaching of islam and Sufism has nothing to do with your stupid spiral dynamics theory that you bring in every shit you talk about..

[shahryar]

8 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said:

@shahryar What makes you think Buddha was Turquoise? Where do you see Turquoise in his teachings? I think he was early Green at best. Most of his followers are Blue or Green at best, and Muhammad's are mostly Purple and Blue. And much of their teachings are the same.

Aristotle and Plato are philosophers. They were not rulers. You're comparing apples and oranges here. Compare Muhammad to The Great Alexander or whoever ruled their land in their time, and you might have a point.

I’m not a Buddhist but as far as I know Buddha had no teachings and written scripture which is the closest path you can get to direct experience, one who can sit meditating for days without sleeping and eating is clearly a tier 2 spiral dynamically speaking and he had thousands of followers so I don’t think assessing Buddha as a turquoise stage is wrong, yes his followers where probably green and some of them even blue following him blindly but we are talking about the individual here that’s why I don’t think comparing philosophers to prophets and rulers is comparing apples to oranges cause no matter who you are and what role you have in society you are first an individual and a human being who has a certain level of development , but if you’re not happy with this comparison why not compare him with Marcus aurelius or Persian King Cyrus the great (who wrote first human rights)
and yes you’re right most Muhammad followers where purple and blue but again I was talking about assessment of his individual level of development not his society. As a person who lives in a Muslim country (applying this term “Muslim country” is wrong because we are now developed so much and most people are atheists and stage orange in Iran ) I must say that “Muslim phobia” is real because most Muslims are just born into it and just want to live their lives peacefully but “Islamophobia” is not real because its not a phobia, one must fear Islam , Sharia law and its barbaric rules, it’s a fascist totalitarian military cult which has no value for human rights and lives.
 I asked Leo gura on Instagram to talk about “ woman, life, freedom” revolution happening in Iran which is a green movement and he considered it, but I must say considering Muhammad a buddha is a dagger to the heart of any reform in middle east, we want to develop to higher levels and live like liberal and social democracies not stuck in if Muhammad was a Red or Blue , who ever he was we are heading towards green.

Edited December 25, 2022 by shahryar

[shahryar]

45 minutes ago, Ulax said:

@shahryar Imo, spiral dynamics doesn't really reflect awakening

that’s the definition of "Zen devil" someone not developed enough but experienced some awakenings

[shahryar]

2 hours ago, omar30 said:

@shahryar

All your info here is false and biased Sufism existed before islam they embraced islam later on, the teaching of islam and Sufism has nothing to do with your stupid spiral dynamics theory that you bring in every shit you talk about..

you talk about one of the points I’ve made about Sufism then you generalize it to call all my info wrong, this is the definition of Faulty generalization Fallacy
yes spiritual traditions existed in middle east and Persia way before Islam we had spiritual Zoroastrianism and Mithraism in Persia, but, what we call as Sufism was created later combining the past spiritual traditions with Islam to calm Islam down and making it less aggressive
and by the way spiral dynamics is not stupid

Edited December 25, 2022 by shahryar

[omar30]

@shahryar

I don't mean it's stupid I mean it's irrelevant all the teaching of Muhammad was channeled directly from infinite intelligence there is no human factor in the Quran , Muhammad is the only one who destroyed slavery back then but it takes time for people to accept it so that's why he had slaves.

Why do you care about the life of a person who died?

You can test the teachings and the spiritual practices of Islam and Sufism.

WITHOUT THE DOGMA OF RELIGION AND RELYING ON MEANINGLESS HISTORICAL STORIES.

I think you had a bad experience with the religion you should not follow anything people say you should test it and use your mind.

You're interpreting the Quran from a materialistic shallow stage orange blue lense that's why you call it zen delivery.

[shahryar]

1 hour ago, omar30 said:

@shahryar

I don't mean it's stupid I mean it's irrelevant all the teaching of Muhammad was channeled directly from infinite intelligence there is no human factor in the Quran , Muhammad is the only one who destroyed slavery back then but it takes time for people to accept it so that's why he had slaves.

Why do you care about the life of a person who died?

You can test the teachings and the spiritual practices of Islam and Sufism.

WITHOUT THE DOGMA OF RELIGION AND RELYING ON MEANINGLESS HISTORICAL STORIES.

I think you had a bad experience with the religion you should not follow anything people say you should test it and use your mind.

You're interpreting the Quran from a materialistic shallow stage orange blue lense that's why you call it zen delivery.

Sufism and spiritual practices of Islam are great and believe it or not I do them even now after becoming an ex Muslim of course without the dogma of religion, I consider Salah or Salat a good spiritual practice and I sometimes do Sufi whirling’s, I’ve read Rumi, Attar of Nishapur, Hafiz and many other spiritual teachers from Muslim and Persian culture , I did even watched hundreds of hours of contemporary Muslim Persian spiritual masters such as Dr. Elahi Ghomeshi , but what I’m saying is that these people are great but not real Muslims.

one can argue that real Christians don’t take bible literally but the same cannot be applied to Islam cause It does not allow it itself, real Muslims are the ones who want to do what Quran says literally and do as Muhammad did which was exactly as fundamentalists do today maybe worse, cause Quran itself says you must take it literally Muhammad himself said you cannot change even a word from it
maybe some of Muhammad teachings were channeled when he was in Mekka not being in power, but god talking in Quran about Muhammad taking turn on his wives as he wishes in "Nessa surah" or god talking about killing non-believers or beating your wife or taking slaves or taking "Jizya" "tax on different beliefs" is definitely not from infinite intelligence.
a person who died or historical stories might have been irrelevant if his teachings didn’t continue to hurt us and deter middle eastern people development and them reaching democracy but it does, so he must be known as what he was, a war lord, a pervert tribe cult leader who made up verses for his benefit and wasnt creative enough to make it up entirely so he copied 70% of jewish myths and made a amalgamation named Quran

Edited December 25, 2022 by shahryar

[Gesundheit2]

 

[shahryar]

17 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

 

17 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

 

Sleep with this Sami Yusuf Lullaby about your warmongering Allah who unscientifically wrote in his book about the sky having invisible pillars and the world being made in 6 days, and think everything within Islam is right blindly, the wind of change will come nevertheless.

Edited December 25, 2022 by shahryar

[Gesundheit2]

@shahryar I'm just saying, there are countless interpretations of Islam. Which one is it that you're criticizing? You could go all the way to extreme fundamentalism, or in the opposite direction to post-modernism. Every shade of that spectrum considers itself true Islam of Muhammad. And there's no consensus as to what constitutes true Islam except from each group's pov, which is obviously self-biased.

Funny thing is that your sect is not necessarily directly affected by your level of religiosity, nor is the inverse true. You could be an extreme Sufi, or a laid back Wahabi, and you could justify it with the Quran and/or with Hadith however you like. You could also be a strict Quranist, or you could reject the Quran entirely and still consider yourself a Muslim. In fact, most Quranists and rejectionists consider themselves more Muslims than the average Muslim. It's just silly.

I don't know what the point of this thread is, though. If you don't like the Iranian government, you can rally against it, you can move out of Iran, etc. If you don't like the Iranian version of Islam or any version of Islam at all, then don't subscribe to it. Nobody is forcing you, not that they could to begin with.

Edited December 25, 2022 by Gesundheit2

[omar30]

@Gesundheit2

Are you Iranian?

You seem to me to be from the Arab world or Iran?

[shahryar]

3 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said:

@shahryar I'm just saying, there are countless interpretations of Islam. Which one is it that you're criticizing? You could go all the way to extreme fundamentalism, or in the opposite direction to post-modernism. Every shade of that spectrum considers itself true Islam of Muhammad. And there's no consensus as to what constitutes true Islam except from each group's pov, which is obviously self-biased.

Funny thing is that your sect is not necessarily directly affected by your level of religiosity, nor is the inverse true. You could be an extreme Sufi, or a laid back Wahabi, and you could justify it with the Quran and/or with Hadith however you like. You could also be a strict Quranist, or you could reject the Quran entirely and still consider yourself a Muslim. In fact, most Quranists and rejectionists consider themselves more Muslims than the average Muslim. It's just silly.

I don't know what the point of this thread is, though. If you don't like the Iranian government, you can rally against it, you can move out of Iran, etc. If you don't like the Iranian version of Islam or any version of Islam at all, then don't subscribe to it. Nobody is forcing you, not that they could to begin with.

I agree with you about everyone thinking they believe in the right version according to their biases and there is a spectrum in being a Muslim from fundamentalist absolutists to tolerant post-modern relativists, people are different and have their biases but scripture isn’t, Quran Claims to be absolute truth , people invented more peaceful versions of Islam against its strict verses so they can live with it
anyways I just wanted to correct the false assessment of Muhammad’s character happening frequently in Leo’s videos
I don’t like any Ideological fascist totalitarian system whether its Islam or Iranian government but it’s irrelevant to Muhammad’s character, where I’m from and anything about me does not change who Muhammad was, the point of this thread is addressing Muhammad’s character as he was

Edited December 25, 2022 by shahryar

[Leo Gura]

@shahryar You have a silly understanding of ancient Middle East history and culture.

All morality is relative.

Edited December 25, 2022 by Leo Gura

[How to be wise]

@shahryar As someone who’s studied Muhammad (to an extent), you’re right in that he was your typical stage Red warlord. He definitely wasn’t a spiritual person, he was materialistic. That being said, he also wasn’t your ‘average’ person either. When he started his preaching, he was living in a tiny village in the middle of the desert. 50 years later, his followers had conquered everything between Iran and Morocco. So in that sense he was not your average nomad. 

[shahryar]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@shahryar You have a silly understanding of ancient Middle East history and culture.

All morality is relative.

I agree that morality is relative, yet "silly understanding" is a quality needs to be defined and quantified, I don’t know which part of my understanding you are referring to as silly, please clarify to me so I can correct myself if I’m wrong cause otherwise it sounds like "ad hominem" fallacy.
but as I can guess what you mean is that his level of development was good enough  for that time and that region. but one must know that Persian and Roman empires were advanced and very higher spiral dynamically speaking than Muslims, what happened was like vandals from hundreds of years ago attack New York today and use laptops and I phones as hammer, there were banks, schools, barracks, ports, hospitals, and universities in ancient Persia destroyed by Muslims. you must read about Cyrus Cylinder you will be shocked when you find out that he wrote first human rights manifest more than a thousand years before Muhammad, assess Persian king Cyrus level of development 

Edited December 25, 2022 by shahryar

[shahryar]

1 hour ago, How to be wise said:

@shahryar As someone who’s studied Muhammad (to an extent), you’re right in that he was your typical stage Red warlord. He definitely wasn’t a spiritual person, he was materialistic. That being said, he also wasn’t your ‘average’ person either. When he started his preaching, he was living in a tiny village in the middle of the desert. 50 years later, his followers had conquered everything between Iran and Morocco. So in that sense he was not your average nomad. 

I agree, I’ve never said he was an average nomad he was definitely smart although as you said he didn’t conquer realms you mentioned  himself also conquering them does not make one’s development level higher, you can conquer the world like Genghis khan and still be a stage red person, smartness is not equal  to development

Edited December 25, 2022 by shahryar