The Association for Spiritual Integrity — honor code of ethics for spiritual teachers

[roopepa]

On 24.12.2022 at 9:57 PM, Someone here said:

I guess what @roopepa is saying The “good” news is there is no “you” or “spiritual master.” There is only the One Reality, and the whole purpose of working with a spiritual master is to find that out, to directly realize that.

Since there are not two, but One, the true guide is You, within You, as You and your Life.

Not at all what I'm saying.

Just let go the whole spirituality -narrative, even for a moment.

[Someone here]

3 hours ago, roopepa said:

Not at all what I'm saying.

Just let go the whole spirituality -narrative, even for a moment.

So are you suggesting that spirituality as a whole is a scam ? I don't see your point clearly. I think you've been highly influenced by Nahm's communication that you just parroting what he says . If there is no spiritual teacher nor student because there is no separate self then why are you on two spiritual forums?  What are you trying to achieve with engaging in spiritual communities? 

[Nilsi]

13 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Are the spiritual teachers backing the ASI clueless? 

Of course.

I'm obviously not saying, "let's write a list of people that would be qualified to create and enforce such rules"; I'm saying "let's not create and enforce such rules in the first place."

Edited December 26, 2022 by Nilsi

[roopepa]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

So are you suggesting that spirituality as a whole is a scam ?

No.

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

I don't see your point clearly. I think you've been highly influenced by Nahm's communication that you just parroting what he says .

? No.

My point is that the "spiritual teachers and students" is an idea some folk really get attached to. Especially on this forum.

Drop the "spirituality" -narrative and you'll see what I mean.

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

If there is no spiritual teacher nor student because there is no separate self then why are you on two spiritual forums?  What are you trying to achieve with engaging in spiritual communities? 

Cause it's fun. To have a chat with people. To speak what I'm feeling and thinking. Ask for help and advice. Nothing to do with being a teacher or a student.

[roopepa]

You spot Actualized vibe instantly anywhere, cause the constant use the word "teaching". ?

Especially when you see the words "my teachings..." ?? Or calling someone else a "teacher" when they have not mentioned anything about being a teacher, or has directly said they are NOT a teacher.

[Nilsi]

When working on Zen, some people, owing to their incapability [or just reluctance] of raising the "doubt-sensation," begin to suppress the arising of thoughts. When all thoughts have been suppressed, these people experience a lucid and pure serenity, thoroughly clear, without the slightest taint. This, however, constitutes the very root source of the consciousness which they cannot break through. This is the consciousness within the realm of life and death. It is not Zen. Their fault is that at the start of their Zen practice they did not work penetratingly enough on the Hua Tou: thus, the doubt-sensation did not arise. As a result they either suppress thought and become dead-void heretics, or plunging into self-indulgent conceit, they mislead and cheat the ignorant, diverting people's faith and hindering their progress on the Bodhi Path.

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, Someone here said:

I think you've been highly influenced by Nahm's communication that you just parroting what he says .

You think ?

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, Nilsi said:

I'm obviously not saying, "let's write a list of people that would be qualified to create and enforce such rules"; I'm saying "let's not create and enforce such rules in the first place."

Are you against ethical guidelines for psychologists or other healthcare professionals?

[Nilsi]

13 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Are you against ethical guidelines for psychologists or other healthcare professionals?

It's a blur.

If you're having a heart surgery, there is a clear "a to b" procedure and we can enforce clear ethical guidelines around it.

If you're a psychoanalyst, things get a lot trickier.

Do you think Peter Ralstons retreats are ethical? What about Carl Jung banging his patients? How about Adi Das commune? Is it unethical if it does what it's supposed to do?

 

And, of course, ethics are directly antithetical to Truth.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Nilsi

[Carl-Richard]

1 minute ago, Nilsi said:

Do you think Peter Ralstons retreats are ethical? What about Carl Jung banging his patients? How about Adi Das commune? Is it unethical if it does what it's supposed to do?

Is it? You tell me.

I think spiritual teachers actually need ethical guidelines the most because of their socially transgressive "holier than flesh" tendencies. "The absolute doesn't care about anything you care about. Let it go, let it go, let it go... and let me have it".

[Nilsi]

35 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Is it? You tell me.

I think spiritual teachers actually need ethical guidelines the most because of their socially transgressive "holier than flesh" tendencies. "The absolute doesn't care about anything you care about. Let it go, let it go, let it go... and let me have it".

It is not in the realm of things with which ethics should concern itself. 

Of course we want a marriage of beauty, goodness and truth, but this can only emerge naturally. If you let ethics reign over beauty and truth, the result will be way worse than had you just minded your own damn business.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Nilsi

[Carl-Richard]

@Nilsi So the answer is: fucking your students is not ethical. It's the go-to example of unethical conduct. "The absolute" doesn't justify it. If you feel like fucking your students, and you execute on it by framing it as a spiritual practice, you're a devil, regardless of whether it leads to somebody's awakening or not. It's worrying that we're even having this conversation.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Nilsi]

4 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

@Nilsi So the answer is: fucking your students is not ethical. It's the go-to example of unethical conduct. "The absolute" doesn't justify it. If you feel like fucking your students, and you execute on it by framing it as a spiritual practice, you're a devil, regardless of whether it leads to somebody's awakening or not. It's worrying that we're even having this conversation.

I don't think Adi Da or Osho thought of the people in their communes as their "students."

I could easily call you insensitive and absolutist for projecting your pet social constructs on different cultural contexts.

[Carl-Richard]

4 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

I don't think Adi Da or Osho thought of the people in their communes as their "students."

I could easily call you insensitive and absolutist for projecting your pet social constructs on different cultural contexts.

What kind of rationalizations do you think Catholic priests use? 

Quote

In 2010, Pope Benedict XVI published a letter[1] (in German and then translated into English) in which he provided a unified perspective on several issues that, together, he believes contributed to the sexual abuse scandal. One of the chief reasons put forth by the Pope was the push by several prominent theologians for a relativistic perspective on morality where "there could no longer be anything that constituted an absolute good, any more than anything fundamentally evil; (there could be) only relative value judgments."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_on_the_causes_of_clerical_child_abuse

Oh, was I being culturally insensitive now? I'm sorry.

[Nilsi]

12 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

What kind of rationalizations do you think Catholic priests use? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_on_the_causes_of_clerical_child_abuse

Oh, was I being culturally insensitive now? I'm sorry.

The difference being that in the cases of Adi Da, Osho, Carl Jung etc. all people involved did consent.

Is BDSM unethical to you, just because someone is getting "hurt"?

[Carl-Richard]

12 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

The difference being that in the cases of Adi Da, Osho, Carl Jung etc. all people involved did consent.

Is BDSM unethical to you, just because someone is getting "hurt"?

In BDSM, you get what you signed up for. In spirituality, it's a bonus, a "pleasant surprise" which you get persuaded into doing "for your own good", through subtle manipulation and gradual erosion of boundaries, power dynamics, group pressure — you know, all that good, innocent stuff.

The difference of course is that spiritual teachers are holy men of God, while Catholic priests are not...

Edited December 26, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Nilsi]

6 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

In BDSM, you get what you signed up for. In spirituality, it's a bonus, a "pleasant surprise" which you get persuaded into doing "for your own good", through subtle manipulation and gradual erosion of boundaries, power dynamics, group pressure — you know, all that good, innocent stuff.

Now you're just making shit up.

If I join a hippie commune and as I'm getting acculturated, I drop some previously held boundaries and social constructs and end up having a bisexual orgy - is that manipulation and power dynamics, or is it me opening myself up to new experiences?

Edited December 26, 2022 by Nilsi

[Carl-Richard]

19 hours ago, Nilsi said:

If I join a hippie commune and as I'm getting acculturated I drop some previously held boundaries and social constructs and end up having a bisexual orgy, is that manipulation and power dynamics or is it me opening myself up to new experiences?

If it's for the direct sexual pleasure of some higher-up person in the organization, and if it's also not overtly stated as a part of the organization's activities prior to people joining, then it's most likely unethical conduct and likely manipulation and power dynamics going on. If you on the other hand join a hippie commune and end up having sex with some new friends, that's not necessarily a sign of unethical conduct on the part of any powerful person in the organization.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Nilsi]

6 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

If it's for the direct sexual pleasure of some higher-up person in the organization, and if it's also not overtly stated as a part of the organizations activities prior to people joining on their own accord, then yes. If you on the other hand join a hippie commune and end up having sex with some new friends, that's not necessarily sign of unethical conduct on the part of any powerful person in the organization.

Am I abusing my power if I seduce a girl in a college lecture?

How about celebrities? Are they allowed to sleep with groupies?

What if I fall in love with my secretary? 

Is society not organized in a dominance hierarchy? Does that mean all sex is an abuse of power?

 

This is silly logic.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Nilsi

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Nilsi said:

Am I abusing my power if I seduce a girl in a college lecture?

If you're a lecturer and responsible for some of their grades, it's definitely putting into question the impartiality of your practice, and the teacher could also certainly levy some of that in their favor ("if you have sex with me, I'll give you an A"). It's generally considered unethical conduct.

 

1 hour ago, Nilsi said:

How about celebrities? Are they allowed to sleep with groupies?

Rock and roll and the like is not really an organization where you have roles and titles with set expectations and interactions with people in a professional setting. A groupie who goes backstage to meet their idol doesn't experience a conflict of roles. They're there as a private person, as is their idol. A student goes to school to get an education. That's the purpose of the student-teacher relationship. Once you start blurring the lines between professional roles and private persons, that is where ethical misconduct begins.

 

1 hour ago, Nilsi said:

What if I fall in love with my secretary? 

If there is a power differential, sure. 

We can keep going through all kinds of examples, but you can't deny that there are levels to these things. A spiritual teacher is dealing with people in a very vulnerable situation. It's not just people who come with issues like in psychotherapy, but they also come to deconstruct their sense of reality. The "weighting" on the power differential and the potential for misconduct is much greater than in almost any other example I can think of.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Carl-Richard