The Association for Spiritual Integrity — honor code of ethics for spiritual teachers

[SeaMonster]

3 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Damaging the ego does not benefit spiritual growth. Transcending the ego does.

And this is a most naive take, given that many people have incurred spontaneous awakenings via trauma or accident, or even sexual violation.

Not that teachers should harm the ego, but you still don't see how your mentality on this subject is full of wishful thinking.

[zurew]

6 minutes ago, SeaMonster said:

Teachers can have reputations, testimonials, etc.

Yeah but that doesn't really give you any objective image about how effective that teacher is. I don't think you can judge testimonials the same way as with a random other service or product. For example in this case in it doesn't really matter how many students claim that they got enlightened by the teachings because there is no way you can measure that objectively, you can't have access to their state or to their mind.

6 minutes ago, SeaMonster said:

"Which teacher you resonate with" = whose sales pitch most appeals to your ego. 

So you are saying that people will go with the teacher , who is basically the best marketer? So claiming outrageous stuff just to lure in people? Now, I could agree with that, but that has nothing to do with how effective you are at being a teacher.

Edited December 24, 2022 by zurew

[Carl-Richard]

9 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Yes it is. We're talking about truth, while everything else are cultural constructions, which can be contained and modified for the benefit of society - which is what we should be talking about.

 

5 minutes ago, SeaMonster said:

And this is a most naive take, given that many people have incurred spontaneous awakenings via trauma or accident, or even sexual violation.

 

This is exactly why spirituality and cults go hand in hand. Once you separate spirituality from all notions of social responsibility, you need to reconstruct the needs that society fulfills outside of society. Instead of doing that, see the needs for spirituality and the needs for safety and integrate them.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[SeaMonster]

1 minute ago, zurew said:

Yeah but that doesn't really give you any objective image about how effective that teacher is. I don't think you can judge testimonials the same way as with a random other service or product. For example in this case in it doesn't really matter how many students claim that they got enlightened by the teachings because there is no way you can measure that objectively, you can't have access to their state or to their mind.

If you genuinely believe that, then the whole subject is moot -- all reports of enlightenment are lies or self-delusion and why bother to pursue it in the first place?

I assume testimonials have some degree of accuracy.

4 minutes ago, zurew said:

So you are saying that people will go with the teacher , who is basically the best marketer? So claiming outregous stuff just to lure in people? Now, I could agree with that, but that has nothing to do with how effective you are at being a teacher.

Yes - I'm saying that going by which teacher resonates with you - as YOU said - is less effective than to go by some kind of external measure such as a reputation or testimonials.

[SeaMonster]

5 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

This is exactly why spirituality and cults go hand in hand. Once you separate spirituality from all notions of social responsibility, you need to reconstruct the needs that society fulfills outside of society. Instead of doing that, see the needs for spirituality and the needs for safety and integrate them.

You've pretty much described religion.

How effective has that been at awakening people?

 

[zurew]

11 minutes ago, SeaMonster said:

all reports of enlightenment are lies or self-delusion and why bother to pursue it in the first place?

I didn't say that, I just said its not the same as with other services or products.

11 minutes ago, SeaMonster said:

is less effective than to go by some kind of external measure such as a reputation or testimonials.

I guess maybe positive testimonials don't hold that much weight in this subject (at least for me), but negative ones can do a lot here and they can have a lot of weight, but the problem is that people are shy and don't know what to say or how to handle these things (when they get fucked over by a cult or and get mind raped by a teacher) so they often don't say shit, and some of them don't even know whats good or bad treatment anymore, because they get brainwashed. - thats why it would be good that some people could look and go to this list and decide which teacher is high quality and which one is low quality and unnecessarily dangerous.

Edited December 24, 2022 by zurew

[Nilsi]

11 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

 

 

This is exactly why spirituality and cults go hand in hand. Once you separate spirituality from all notions of social responsibility, you need to reconstruct the needs that society fulfills outside of society. Instead of doing that, see the needs for spirituality and the needs for safety and integrate them.

Let's develop ourselves and become integrated and mature people, but let's not fool ourselves when it comes to truth.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Nilsi

[Carl-Richard]

2 minutes ago, SeaMonster said:

You've pretty much described religion.

How effective has that been at awakening people?

I'm 100% describing religion. We just need an updated version, not the 2000 year old stale versions.

[SeaMonster]

6 minutes ago, zurew said:

I didn't say that, I just said its not the same as with other services or products.

I guess maybe positive testimonials don't hold that much weight in this subject (at least for me), but negative ones can do a lot here and they can have a lot of weight, but the problem is that people are shy and don't know what to say or how to handle these things (when they get fucked over by a cult or by a teacher) so they often don't say shit. - thats why it would be good that some people would know a high quality teacher what ethics would/should follow.

It's not the same, but if I keep hearing that - FOR WHATEVER REASON - some teacher has been particularly effective at getting people enlightened, I assume it's because he has some insight that translates into effectively helping people overcome their ego traps.

Now, such teachers are NOT drones like your typical credentialed Ph.D. psychotherapist and tend to be highly individualistic and so trying to make them into such is very wrongheaded.

[Nilsi]

2 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I'm 100% describing religion. We just need an updated version, not the 2000 year old stale versions.

Religion ≠ Spirituality 

[Carl-Richard]

Just now, Nilsi said:

Religion ≠ Spirituality 

Why?

[SeaMonster]

3 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I'm 100% describing religion. We just need an updated version, not the 2000 year old stale versions.

Duuuuuuuude. You literally sound like a communist - it's not a bad idea, it just hasn't been properly implemented yet - we will pull it off!

Just hubris and lack of experience, sorry to say.

[Carl-Richard]

1 minute ago, SeaMonster said:

Duuuuuuuude. You literally sound like a communist - it's not a bad idea, it just hasn't been properly implemented yet - we will pull it off!

Just hubris and lack of experience, sorry to say.

Says the libertarian ?

[Nilsi]

1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said:

Why?

Because one is a belief system and the other is a direct experience of Truth.

I agree that we need better belief systems, that's not the issue.

[SeaMonster]

10 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Says the libertarian ?

No, says the Daoist, and honestly, you're very intelligent but you should get beyond Leo's teachings once in awhile -- you're unduly influenced by his very questionable opinions on things.  You have trouble understanding that power corrupts apparently, and any idealization of power is naive narcissism (---> Leo Gura.)

[SeaMonster]

We live in a world of the Internet where it's virtually impossible to hide anything, so people can gather all kinds of information they need and communicate in a decentralized manner.  These boards are what's outdated.  Top-down is obsolete, and is something to be captured by controllers and manipulators.

Edited December 24, 2022 by SeaMonster

[Nilsi]

15 minutes ago, SeaMonster said:

No, says the Daoist, and honestly, you're very intelligent but you should get beyond Leo's teachings once in awhile -- you're unduly influenced by his very questionable opinions on things.  You have trouble understanding that power corrupts apparently, and any idealization of power is naive narcissism (---> Leo Gura.)

lol

If anything, he should listen to Leo on this point.

Leo is right for cutting through bullshit when it comes to Truth. If you try to fit Truth into some moral system, you corrupt it - that's the point, no?

Edited December 24, 2022 by Nilsi

[SeaMonster]

2 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

If anything, he should listen to Leo for once.

Nah. Leo says a million different things at odds with each other: some of them right on the money and some just straight up nonsense.

He is channeling his Enlightened Politics bullshit and his irrational idealization of government (which may be a necessary evil, but to idealize it is just twisted) and applying it to spirituality.

[zurew]

3 minutes ago, SeaMonster said:

We live in a world of the Internet where it's virtually impossible to hide anything

and yet how many bad examples we can look at. This all or nothing mentality is bullshit, because basically in one hand i can take the teaching of truth and on the other hand I can put anything (any volume from the worst things possible) that can justify the teaching of truth. Also I don't see what serious teaching tool is taken away by the implementation of that list. Also, we can talk about the modification of that list (but we can't get to that point, if we can't acknowledge, that no list is = to (the spiritual teacher can do basically any fucking thing he/she wants for the sake of teaching the truth)

[Nilsi]

Just now, SeaMonster said:

He is channeling his Enlightened Politics bullshit and his irrational idealization of government (which may be a necessary evil, but to idealize it is just twisted) and applying it to spirituality.

He's actually not. The way he talks about those things is how they should he talked about. Whether you agree with his politics is another issue.