swedish gender-neutral pre-school

[Danioover9000]

@Devin

8 hours ago, Devin said:

I watched most of the video, I feel I see what you're getting at, I disagree this has anything to do with the article, the article is about not steering boys to doy 'boy things' and girls to do 'girl things'. The video is about 'you're the gender your're perceived to be'(right?). I find you pushing this in this thread to be reactive and inconsiderate. The article is not about identifying gender, it's about not putting kids in boxes.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com/1006928/swedens-gender-neutral-preschools-produce-kids-who-are-more-likely-to-succeed/amp

 

   However, both the context of "not steering boys to be 'boys', and girls to be 'girls'. by state sponsored Swedish teachers" and the video about the second context of "You're not the gender you're perceived to be. by extension that's also means the he/she/it you're seeing, that person, is also not the gender you and/or they themselves perceive." are interconnected to each other. one context of school indoctrination largely shapes that child's speech patterns and behaviors later in life, influencing the second context of how you think and perceive about yourself and others as mental constructs pf gender identity, so in this instance teaching them to avoid using gender pronouns limits their communications and expressions to others in many social contexts later in life when it's actually appropriate to refer to them using gender pronouns instead. The knock on effect, is that this pursuit of gender neutrality creates a shadow aspect for feminine and masculine traits/qualities from within the minds of those indoctrinated to pursue gender neutrality, crating a subtle enemy out of being male or being female when it's actually right and efficient to BECOME AND BEING so, designing the false pursuit of being neutral in gender, when in fact not only do you still have your gender identity, it's really coupled closely to biological sex and sexual orientation, which then creates a more negative relationship with how you view your body and biological sex.

   I'm not trying to, despite my earlier ranting posts, I'm not attacking or demonizing the Swedes from doing this. I'm pointing out that this will have knock on effects in the future, it will ruin traditional/cultural norms of gender, and change your relationships to sex and other people's sex, in social situations, and it will lead to various kinds of changes to society and how they handle their adult life for the remainder of their lives. This to me feels like they're trying to design robotic people, while overlooking how closely coupled biological sex and mental representations of gender identity are. They're trying to indoctrinate this seeking of equality and equanimity too early, without any mindfulness practices, without actually letting them go through the developmental stages of development, cognitive and moral development, personality typing, ego development, states of being and becoming and consciousness, letting them have life experiences first, and other lines of development in different areas of life. Trying to manipulate and exploit their worldviews, beliefs systems and ideologies very early on in their upbringing, will have changes to their self biases and how it may distort reality of perceiving others later in life.

[Danioover9000]

@Devin

   Basically, to give a very oversimplified position of this from me, I don't want to see more Demonmamas out in the world, with their hyper progressive ideas and Marxist ideas with little experience of how the world actually works. In fact, when Destiny claimed that all moderates and centrists are cowards, that hurt a bit, but maybe in this context of most people faking neutrality and getting indoctrinated to pursue equality and equanimity when they're immature and not yet have a matured ego, I agree with Destiny. It also conveniently plays into maintaining this bureaucratic and conformist collective bias that the Swedish culture has, it downplays any potential ambition and drive that could develop in any of these children, which is to me unfortunate because there's potential geniuses and legends in their baby generation, in the very small percentages in there. 

[Devin]

@Danioover9000

I'm talking about the article exclusively, not about all Swedish policy.  You can have these pre schools AND traditional parenting, why should schools indoctrinate? And no the pre school is not indoctrinating or conformist, parenting can be traditional, or whatever. Why should the government decide gender roles(Your stance)? You're being the marxist, conformist, and indoctrinator; let the parents raise their children as they see fit and let the school teach 2+2.

Do you also think traditional race roles are important?

Edited December 24, 2022 by Devin

[Danioover9000]

@Devin

1 hour ago, Devin said:

@Danioover9000

I'm talking about the article exclusively, not about all Swedish policy.  You can have these pre schools AND traditional parenting, why should schools indoctrinate? And no the pre school is not indoctrinating or conformist, parenting can be traditional, or whatever. Why should the government decide gender roles(Your stance)? You're being the marxist, conformist, and indoctrinator; let the parents raise their children as they see fit and let the school teach 2+2.

Do you also think traditional race roles are important?

   First of all, that's a questatement: a question begging with assumption hidden in the question making, when really it's a statement about what you claim of me and my views framed as a question begging, really. Just because I brought up traditional/conservative roles of gender, doesn't equal making me a traditionalist and conservative self identified, and maybe sexist or misogynist misandry or a racist or xenophobe for bringing these issues up about Sweden's policies and specifically their state funded pre school programs. Obviously no, I don't think traditional race roles are hyper important, and engaging with this question at length will have the probability of me looking like a racist or xenophobe, so all I'll say to this question, is that there's a minimum level of care for races and country necessary to live in one's society. If you are way too anti tradition or anti race, you actually can make life harder for other people, because why should you care for government, or society, or politics, or your community, or your neighborhood, or other communities or other neighborhoods? So, there should be a minimum care for country and society, but obviously to not patriotic levels and nationalistic pride, so you have to engage with this question yourself I guess.

   All schools and the education system indoctrinates it's children, teachers and even parents as well with cultural and national ideas of economy, cultural values, sociology, psychology, history, S.T.E.M preferences, multicultural values, and so on. It is by design that all schools indoctrinate all students and teachers and parents, to some degrees, ranges of many ideas of their country and nations. The main issue is: How do we indoctrinate healthier ideologies? How do we do so that doesn't hamper the baby generation such, that they struggle a bit more about how they express their views later as adults in the future middle generation to old generation? Especially in specific social situations that using gendered pronouns is slightly easier and more acceptable to do so?

   My stance regarding Sweden's state sponsored schooling programs, state funding and state management, is that that state, and all states, should adopt a bit more flexible approach when necessary, meaning that it should be able to increase involvement, or decrease involvement when necessary. In this specific issue, I think that they should decrease a little bit less state involvement with how teachers teach these pre schoolers how to communicate to their fellow peers and seniors to avoid using gendered pronouns. I'm guessing Sweden's government is ruled by a left wing political party? If so, I can see limitations and where they are biased and preferential for and against. If Sweden was ruled by a centrist party, or a democratic party, or even a socialistic/progressive party, or even a conservative party, I'll still point out limitations and biases where I can see them. For example, I'll still point out, in a complaining manner, if OP posted the topic that Sweden's pre school teachers are teaching them traditionally gender roles, and emphasizing uniforms and love of country, I still will point out hoe they are too nationalistic here as well.

   If that makes me look Marxist, or conformist, I'm not. I'm fundamentally conservative and liberal depending on situations, which makes me more a centrist or agnostic to these political situations. If in your perspective I'm still a Marxist or conformist ANYWAYS, then I can't convince or persuade you otherwise that I'm a systems thinker and pundit, all I'll say is that you are talking to a caricature and engaging with straw mans of me and my takes.

[Devin]

27 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Devin

   First of all, that's a questatement: a question begging with assumption hidden in the question making, when really it's a statement about what you claim of me and my views framed as a question begging, really. Just because I brought up traditional/conservative roles of gender, doesn't equal making me a traditionalist and conservative self identified, and maybe sexist or misogynist misandry or a racist or xenophobe for bringing these issues up about Sweden's policies and specifically their state funded pre school programs. Obviously no, I don't think traditional race roles are hyper important, and engaging with this question at length will have the probability of me looking like a racist or xenophobe, so all I'll say to this question, is that there's a minimum level of care for races and country necessary to live in one's society. If you are way too anti tradition or anti race, you actually can make life harder for other people, because why should you care for government, or society, or politics, or your community, or your neighborhood, or other communities or other neighborhoods? So, there should be a minimum care for country and society, but obviously to not patriotic levels and nationalistic pride, so you have to engage with this question yourself I guess.

   All schools and the education system indoctrinates it's children, teachers and even parents as well with cultural and national ideas of economy, cultural values, sociology, psychology, history, S.T.E.M preferences, multicultural values, and so on. It is by design that all schools indoctrinate all students and teachers and parents, to some degrees, ranges of many ideas of their country and nations. The main issue is: How do we indoctrinate healthier ideologies? How do we do so that doesn't hamper the baby generation such, that they struggle a bit more about how they express their views later as adults in the future middle generation to old generation? Especially in specific social situations that using gendered pronouns is slightly easier and more acceptable to do so?

   My stance regarding Sweden's state sponsored schooling programs, state funding and state management, is that that state, and all states, should adopt a bit more flexible approach when necessary, meaning that it should be able to increase involvement, or decrease involvement when necessary. In this specific issue, I think that they should decrease a little bit less state involvement with how teachers teach these pre schoolers how to communicate to their fellow peers and seniors to avoid using gendered pronouns. I'm guessing Sweden's government is ruled by a left wing political party? If so, I can see limitations and where they are biased and preferential for and against. If Sweden was ruled by a centrist party, or a democratic party, or even a socialistic/progressive party, or even a conservative party, I'll still point out limitations and biases where I can see them. For example, I'll still point out, in a complaining manner, if OP posted the topic that Sweden's pre school teachers are teaching them traditionally gender roles, and emphasizing uniforms and love of country, I still will point out hoe they are too nationalistic here as well.

   If that makes me look Marxist, or conformist, I'm not. I'm fundamentally conservative and liberal depending on situations, which makes me more a centrist or agnostic to these political situations. If in your perspective I'm still a Marxist or conformist ANYWAYS, then I can't convince or persuade you otherwise that I'm a systems thinker and pundit, all I'll say is that you are talking to a caricature and engaging with straw mans of me and my takes.

I don't mean you are a Marxist, I mean your view in this thread is, despite you claiming the competing view is Marxist.

Well I appreciate you offering pitfalls that you see, that's not how I would characterize your behavior here without this explanation.

To me your "pitfalls" are still irrelevant to the thread. I don't see anywhere mentioned where the children are not allowed to use traditional pronouns, I only see where it says teachers use their names instead.

 

[Stovo]

Seems like a good experiment. I'm sure conservatives are going crazy about it though haha

[Alexop]

The gov. is now conservative, they just drove everyone crazy with extremely liberal migration policies so they lost  the september elections.

 

Edited December 25, 2022 by Alexop

[Danioover9000]

@Alexop

1 hour ago, Alexop said:

The gov. is now conservative, they just drove everyone crazy with extremely liberal migration policies so they lost  the september elections.

 

   Oh, so the current Sweden's government is conservative, and they implemented extremely liberal migration policies? Can you elaborate this conservative party and why it decided to be more for migration?

   And because of their extreme implementation of migration policies, they lost votes in the September elections?

   What was the previous party for the Sweden government? 

[Danioover9000]

@Stovo

On 2022-12-24 at 6:25 PM, Stovo said:

Seems like a good experiment. I'm sure conservatives are going crazy about it though haha

   Hoe do you know about this social programing, by state funded pre school programs, is a good social experiment? What makes it seem good to you?

   Important to note, this is Sweden, and Swedish culture, which is similar and different to American culture, which means that all political parties within Sweden will be qualitatively different than what Americans think of their political party, or what UK citizens or EU citizens think of their political parties.

[Alexop]

32 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Alexop

   Oh, so the current Sweden's government is conservative, and they implemented extremely liberal migration policies? Can you elaborate this conservative party and why it decided to be more for migration?

   And because of their extreme implementation of migration policies, they lost votes in the September elections?

   What was the previous party for the Sweden government? 

No, the previous party was too liberal, the social democrats. Now there is a coalition between the moderates and the sweden democrates which got the highest percentage and they are known as the most conservative ex-nazi party.

[Bad_anarchist]

@Alexop You are wrong. The Swedish democrats did not get the most votes. The Social Democrats actually got the most votes (As usual) and did better than in the last election. The Social democrats are also not a liberal party, they are rather conservetive.