No self-referential thoughts = higher functionality; adolescence vs. adulthood

[Carl-Richard]

The question is just do you want to stay in the world of imagination and fantasy like Peter Pan or do you want to grow up and be in the world? Adolescent self-indulgence vs. adult responsibility. Tell me if you see the connection:
 

 

[Nilsi]

Calling self-referential though "always a problematic process" is itself a problematic process. 

I like Zak Steins metapsychological framework of transcendence (firstness), ensoulment (secondness) and development (thirdness). Self-referential thought would be in the domain of development - and thats precisely where its useful; in being able to idealize oneself. There is a time and place for being as well - of course.

As far as Im concerned, framing self-referential thought as "something to get rid of" is quite reductionist and not mature. This is fundamentally very much escapism and an unwillingness to accept the human condition for what it is.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Nilsi

[Carl-Richard]

41 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Calling self-referential though "always a problematic process" is itself a problematic process. 

I like Zak Steins metapsychological framework of transcendence (firstness), ensoulment (secondness) and development (thirdness). Self-referential thought would be in the domain of development - and thats precisely where its useful; in being able to idealize oneself. There is a time and place for being as well - of course.

As far as Im concerned, framing self-referential thought as "something to get rid of" is quite reductionist and not mature. This is fundamentally very much escapism and an unwillingness to accept the human condition for what it is.

Generally, the less time you spend compulsively regurgitating episodic memories, the more functional you'll be. There is really no way around it. Now, the techniques to get there (and the fashion they're used in) can certainly be questionable.

[Nilsi]

10 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Generally, the less time you spend compulsively regurgitating episodic memories, the more functional you'll be. There is really no way around it. Now, the techniques to get there (and the fashion they're used in) can certainly be questionable.

My point is that self-referential thought serves a purpose. 

Compulsively regurgitating episodic memories is not the same thing as delibeately reflecting on yourself for whatever purpose.

[UnbornTao]

I was contemplating adulthood or maturity.

One thing it seems to involve is the capacity to do something for another without her knowing. Another is being able to do something that serves something outside yourself and self-agenda.

[Nilsi]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

I was contemplating adulthood or maturity.

One thing it seems to involve is the capacity to do something for another without her knowing. Another is being able to do something that serves something outside yourself and self-agenda.

The more developed you are, the more mature you are.

To use a crude example: a human at a worldcentric level of development is more mature than one at an egocentric or ethnocentric level of development - no matter how many "self-referential thoughts" this human has.

Lets not reinvent the wheel here - these models are the best thing we have to define maturity. 

Edited December 21, 2022 by Nilsi

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, Nilsi said:

My point is that self-referential thought serves a purpose. 

Compulsively regurgitating episodic memories is not the same thing as delibeately reflecting on yourself for whatever purpose.

It serves a purpose, just like ejaculating sperm serves a purpose. That does not mean higher functioning. But again, how (or when) you go about getting there matters. You probably shouldn't aim for shutting down self-referential thoughts if you don't have your lower needs met.

[Danioover9000]

@UnbornTao

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

I was contemplating adulthood or maturity.

One thing it seems to involve is the capacity to do something for another without her knowing. Another is being able to do something that serves something outside yourself and self-agenda.

   Small world, eh? I contemplated design, and the conservative mind. All of a sudden, Leo's making videos on understanding the conservative and liberal mind. Can't wait for the centrist one, I expect it to be similar to his other video on not knowing, but detailing most of the pitfalls based on the moderate/centrist mind of trying to not rock the boat, or always be a middle man and try to quench down conflicts through diplomacy, even when sometimes the situation needs much more than diplomacy. Maybe related to sucking up to others, sycophant behavior, door mats, and more.

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

I was contemplating adulthood or maturity.

One thing it seems to involve is the capacity to do something for another without her knowing. Another is being able to do something that serves something outside yourself and self-agenda.

Yup. It's really just different variations of selflessness. I remember my downward spiral at 17-18 years old, and it was exactly what the video above describes: the adult child who burrows down into his fantasies and doesn't want to take responsibility. It's "me-me-me". The adult wakes up and realizes the sacrifices that need to be made. The ultimate adulthood is when the "me-me-me" dies, and life becomes pure service (to God).

Edited December 21, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Nilsi]

10 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

It serves a purpose, just like ejaculating sperm serves a purpose. That does not mean higher functioning. But again, how (or when) you go about getting there matters. You probably shouldn't aim for shutting down self-referential thoughts if you don't have your lower needs met.

Holding being as some kind of ultimate attainment is silly and doesnt reflect the reality and complexity of the psyche.

Being "liberated" from your thoughts is no different than some Marxist utopia or Platonic realm of ideals - its a fiction your psyche constructs to cope with suffering and nihilism.

Have you read too much Maslow, or what is going on here?

Edited December 21, 2022 by Nilsi

[Danioover9000]

@Nilsi

20 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

The more developed you are, the more mature you are.

To use a crude example: a human at a worldcentric level of development is more mature than one at an egocentric or ethnocentric level of development - no matter how many "self-referential thoughts" this human has.

Lets not reinvent the wheel here - these models are the best thing we have to define maturity. 

   Agreed, if I had to guess, @Carl-Richard's plight is that antagonizing the self referential thought is okay, so this means he's more liberal minded in this aspect. Whereas you are more conservative minded when having an antagonistic attitude towards the self referential thought.

   It all depends on one's stage of development, cognitive and moral development, personality typing, ego development, states of consciousness, other lines of development in different areas of life, worldviews, ideologies indoctrinated into you from cultural upbringing, and many more.

   With that said, I hate it when Buddhist monks chant monkey mind. There is nothing monkey about the mind. THE IS POWERFUL, THE MIND IS LIKE A DRAGON!

[Nilsi]

2 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Nilsi

   Agreed, if I had to guess, @Carl-Richard's plight is that antagonizing the self referential thought is okay, so this means he's more liberal minded in this aspect. Whereas you are more conservative minded when having an antagonistic attitude towards the self referential thought.

How does this have anything to do with being conservative or liberal? lol

[Nilsi]

I find this extremely interesting and would love to get closer to the bottom of this, so Ill just restate my point again:

I was talking about transcendence, ensoulment and development as all being irreducible constituents of the psyche. A similar typology is being, becoming, doing. 

Do you understand what Im saying? And then assuming you do, what do you disagree about here?

Just escaping into being is quite cowardly and unoriginal, as far as Im concerned.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Nilsi

[Danioover9000]

@Nilsi

5 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Holding being as some kind of ultimate attainment is silly and doesnt reflect the reality and complexity of the psyche.

Being "liberated" from your thoughts is no different than some Marxist utopia or Platonic realm of ideals - its a fiction your psyche constructs to cope with suffering and nihilism.

Have you read too much Maslow, or what is going on here?

   It just seems like he's liberal here and okay with how the teacher in that video deals with self referential thoughts, while you seem to value the modals mentioned here, which makes you a bit conservative here.

[Carl-Richard]

26 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Holding being as some kind of ultimate attainment is silly and doesnt reflect the reality and complexity of the psyche.

Being "liberated" from your thoughts is no different than some Marxist utopia or Platonic realm of ideals - its a fiction your psyche constructs to cope with suffering and nihilism.

Have you read too much Maslow, or what is going on here?

Firstly, I think the label of "self-referential thinking" could be misleading. It's better to talk about neural correlates. Secondly, you think you're thinking, but you're really just reporting ;D The unconscious mind is really what is driving the show. Gary Weber talks about it in the video (he uses the analogy of "the rider and the elephant"). But yeah, about the neural correlates:

When you're problem-solving, you're primarily using the task-positive network. "Deliberately reflecting on yourself for whatever purpose" sounds like problem-solving to me. On the other hand, when you're not doing any deep problem-solving, most people primarily switch to the task-negative network (i.e. compulsively thinking I/me/my thoughts). Nobody is advocating for eliminating the episodic memory, only for reducing prolonged stays in the task-negative network.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Nilsi]

19 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Firstly, I think the label of "self-referential thinking" could be misleading. It's better to talk about neural correlates. Secondly, you think you're thinking, but you're really just reporting ;D The unconscious mind is really what is driving the show. Gary Weber talks about it in the video (he uses the analogy of "the rider and the elephant"). But yeah, about the neural correlates:

When you're problem-solving, you're primarily using the task-positive network. "Deliberately reflecting on yourself for whatever purpose" sounds like problem-solving to me. On the other hand, when you're not doing any deep problem-solving, most people primarily switch to the task-negative network (i.e. compulsively thinking I/me/my thoughts). Nobody is advocating for eliminating the episodic memory, only for reducing prolonged stays in the task-negative network.

The guy in the video used much more extreme language than that though.

I'm also not advocating for walking around, lost in compulsive self-talk, like an idiot - of course.

Transcendence can easily become pathological and run amok, if there are no checks and balances on it; and tends to get glorified by spiritual folk; so I'm just making sure we're on the same page here.

Pursuing "no mind" is no different than pursuing some utopian fantasy - it's escapism (but it's also tricky, because you're escaping into the present moment, so I'm not entirely sure what to make of it).

Edited December 21, 2022 by Nilsi

[Nilsi]

I think I actually need a break from all this theorizing. This is melting my brain.

[Carl-Richard]

5 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

The guy in the video used much more extreme language than that though.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean.

 

4 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

I'm also not advocating for walking around, lost in compulsive self-talk, like an idiot - of course.

Transcendence can easily become pathological and run wild, if there are no checks and balances on it; and tends to get glorified by spiritual folk; so I'm just making sure we're on the same page here.

Ye I know.

[Tyler Robinson]

Why is adulthood important? 

 

[Tyler Robinson]

3 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Generally, the less time you spend compulsively regurgitating episodic memories, the more functional you'll be.

This cannot be proved at all. 

This seems like some far fetched projection.