No self-referential thoughts = higher functionality; adolescence vs. adulthood

[Tyler Robinson]

14 minutes ago, Proserpina said:

Honestly, what is the point of spirituality and spiral dynamics and all this talk of a 'bigger picture' if no one can get this basic premise?  That the meek and the small are not necessarily less evolved and less enlightened in the greater scheme of things.  When you step outside your own ego and your own maps and science, the significance of others' value in the greater scheme of things becomes clearer.  The world is more nuanced than boxes of 'functional' and 'non-functional'. Many of the supposed 'non-functional' have something to offer and are functional is the greater picture.  But they are silent about it. How can they speak on something so complex, how can they champion themselves when they have so many struggles? This is a serious problem.  The functional are loud. They have no problems championing themselves and so their point of view is the majority rule and very attractive for an ego to unconsciously adopt their perspective.

Exactly. 

Fake spiritual nonsense lol. They act like they figured the world. 

All they know is "I'm better than you because I'm Turquoise." All egoic nonsense parade. 

Real spirituality is empathy and understanding and meeting people where they are at instead of demonizing them. 

[Carl-Richard]

@Tyler Robinson @Proserpina

What do you think spirituality is?

[Tyler Robinson]

Just now, Carl-Richard said:

@Tyler Robinson @Proserpina

What do you think spirituality is?

Something outside your comprehension. 

 

[Carl-Richard]

Just now, Tyler Robinson said:

Something outside your comprehension. 

Which is?

Edited December 22, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Tyler Robinson]

1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said:

Which is?

Love. Love. Love. You can't love. You can only judge. That's why you can never be spiritual. 

The day you will stop judging and cultivate love is the day you will be spiritual.

Your comprehension is limited to academics. You have never truly loved anyone / anything. That's why your robotic language and your judgmental mentality. 

You are at stage Orange. You study models. At stage green, you'll study people instead of models. 

You're too philosophical and methodical. And too intellectual. 

Use heart and brain in moderation. Start feeling things. I never see you in the dating section. You never had a girlfriend. That's a nerd. Emotional logic is lacking. 

[Carl-Richard]

27 minutes ago, Tyler Robinson said:

Love. Love. Love.

Is it possible to grow in one's capacity to love, or is it something you're born with?

Edited December 22, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Proserpina]

13 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

@Tyler Robinson @Proserpina

What do you think spirituality is?

The assumed premise that a good way to do spirituality is to try to encapsulate it in a few defined terms is quite a bit of the problem here. It creates a strawman.  I won't pretend to know all the answers.  All I know is that when I see my lounge and the ground, I internally fall to my knees in reverence.  It influences how I see things.  I have an inner knowing about my own place in the greater scheme of things and I am often somewhat non-functional.  I can sense my place.  

[Tyler Robinson]

Just now, Carl-Richard said:

Is it possible to grow in one's capacity to love, or is it something you're born with?

It's something you can grow. You can grow love by growing deep deep deep empathy for every single suffering entity on planet earth. Then slowly you can extend this empathy to some criminal, hater etc. 

First start with mentally ill people because they are the ones who are least empathized with. 

Then move on to disabled people, children with defects, then to poor people, then to people who are marginalized by society, LGBT, then elderly sick and dying, then to animals in slaughter houses, then to people who are lazy, then to people who are obese, and then to women who are abused and in toxic relationships, then to people who are drug addicts, then to scammers and liars and then to those who are in jail and finally to those who never found actualized org(metaphorically those who never found help or guidance in life). 

That day you will see God. That day you will see Love. 

[Carl-Richard]

9 minutes ago, Tyler Robinson said:

It's something you can grow. You can grow love by growing deep deep deep empathy for every single suffering entity on planet earth. Then slowly you can extend this empathy to some criminal, hater etc.

Is being consumed by negative thoughts conducive to love?

[Tyler Robinson]

3 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Is being consumed by negative thoughts conducive to love?

Be consumed by thoughts full of mercy and empathy. Bring tears to your eyes. Look at it as positive. Not negative. Mercy is the birthplace of love. Cry out as much as you can. Your heart will fill to the brim. You might even struggle walking. But in those moments love will visit your soul and you will find true beauty. True beauty lies in feeling pain, extreme unbearable pain. I felt it. It was a release.. Then you will keep crying for hours. That's your awakening. You will see only and only love. True love. Then your heart will open like an innocent child screaming and giggling. And you will walk towards infinite consciousness. 

Osho used to say - Be like a child. 

[Proserpina]

I think people like Carl Jung were trying to use theory to understand and booster 'the meek and the small'.  Perceivers, specifically INFPs, frequent the mental health system quite regularly and don't quite fit into our ESTJ society. I remember reading a quote somewhere where Carl Jung said the introverted perceiver's strength and organization lies in his internal world rather than the external.  INFPs are most likely to 'ruminate', self-reference, and commit suicide of all types I think and yet people like Jung and Tolkien went out of their way to understand them and their strengths assuming them to be equals in their society that can so easily demonize and pathologize them. 

[axiom]

@Carl-Richard 

Good stuff.

It’s well established at this point that reduction of activity in the default mode network (task negative) is the common demoninator in mystical experience, flow states, meditative states, peak states on psilocybin, etc.

All of which miraculously reduce depression.

Another profound way this can be conceived is Metaconsciousness as separation from God - the recognition of our nakedness. That’s the meaning of those verses.

One of the cool things about Gary Weber is that when pushed, he’ll admit there’s no choice. All of this is just happening. I like him.

Edited December 22, 2022 by axiom

[Carl-Richard]

17 hours ago, Tyler Robinson said:

Be consumed by thoughts full of mercy and empathy.

I think people who are generally "consumed" by thoughts, generally experience a large proportion of negative thoughts. It was that way for me, and the science seems to agree, and it generally seems to make sense.

Negative thoughts are usually about unresolved problems, and because they're unresolved, they tend to get stuck on repeat, which is what rumination is. A solution happens in a flash, and then it's solved — thinking about it no longer serves a function. So if a thought is negative, it's most likely going to repeat, and because it repeats, it's going to make up a large proportion of thoughts.

Anyways, I would say that spiritual growth is when you increase your capacity to not just love, but live, and a good (but not perfect) measurement for that is the ability to be present, as opposed to being consumed by negative thoughts.

Edited December 22, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Tyler Robinson]

10 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I think people who are generally "consumed" by thoughts, generally experience a large proportion of negative thoughts. It was that way for me, and the science seems to agree, and it generally seems to make sense.

Negative thoughts are usually about unresolved problems, and they're usually the ones that get stuck on repeat, which is what rumination is. A solution to a problem happens in a flash, and then it's solved — thinking about it no longer serves a function. So if a thought is negative, it's most likely going to repeat, and because it repeats, it's going to make up a large proportion of thoughts.

Anyways, I would say that spiritual growth is when you increase your capacity to not just love, but live, and a good (but not perfect) measurement for that is the ability to be present, as opposed to being consumed by negative thoughts.

A thought is a process of growth. A rumination is decay. I didn't talk about rumination but actively cognitively paying attention to something. 

Being engaged in thinking versus rumination are radically different things. 

[Tyler Robinson]

@Carl-Richard so you don't agree with me that empathetic thinking is necessary? What are you disagreeing with me on? I'm depressed that you don't see harmony with what I'm saying. 

[Danioover9000]

   'Finger swipes the digital screen.'. What is this passive aggressiveness I feel in the thread?

[Carl-Richard]

10 hours ago, Tyler Robinson said:

A thought is a process of growth. A rumination is decay. I didn't talk about rumination but actively cognitively paying attention to something. 

Being engaged in thinking versus rumination are radically different things. 

I thought you were defending rumination and general dysfunction in your mental illness and people-missing-their-legs advocacy.

[Tyler Robinson]

16 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I thought you were defending rumination and general dysfunction in your mental illness and people-missing-their-legs advocacy.

Self reference thoughts help with therapy especially for autistic patients since they rarely self reflect and seem to have a deficiency when it comes to self reference, self awareness and self reflection. The more they're encouraged to interact in a me me me manner, the better and I know this, by interacting with other autism patients since I suffer autism as well. 

So that's not encouraging to say that self referential thinking is not functional since it's very helpful for mentally ill people. 

Rumination is different from this. It means being obsessed with the same thought or event and never getting out of it, it's very repetitive and causes obsession and fatigue and definitely affects functionality. Ruminating is a prominent feature of bipolar disorder and its very debilitating. 

Both are different things. 

One is useful the other is not. 

I'll end it here 

[Razard86]

14 hours ago, Proserpina said:

Honestly, what is the point of spirituality and spiral dynamics and all this talk of a 'bigger picture' if no one can get this basic premise?  That the meek and the small are not necessarily less evolved and less enlightened in the greater scheme of things.  When you step outside your own ego and your own maps and science, the significance of others' value in the greater scheme of things becomes clearer.  The world is more nuanced than boxes of 'functional' and 'non-functional'. Many of the supposed 'non-functional' have something to offer and are functional is the greater picture.  But they are silent about it. How can they speak on something so complex, how can they champion themselves when they have so many struggles? This is a serious problem.  The functional are loud. They have no problems championing themselves and so their point of view is the majority rule and very attractive for an ego to unconsciously adopt their perspective.

The truth is there is no point to anything, any point is merely a construction that's what it means to be a self. A self constructs a point of view, a meaning, and a purpose. Once a self does this, they will inevitably be at odds with others selves and their constructions. This is the fate of all selves to forever be locked in conflict. Self= Conflict, division, separation, prejudice, bias, discrimination, nepotism, philosophy, purpose, mission, etc.

To dissolve the self is to give all that up. Models are adequate to a certain level, once a situation arises that the model didn't foresee it becomes inadequate which all models eventually do. All models also contradict each other, because every self is the same entity in disguise an attempt to control one self is an attempt to control all selves which goes against the design of reality that nothing is in control. Thus all models ultimately fall short of their entire premise which is to create some type of control. 

This is a very elaborate illusion which can only be seen through once all philosophical and ideological thought is ran through and realized it is foolish. The only solution to all problems is a raise in consciousness. All logic is biased towards survival and thus any models with appeals to logic and emotion of low conscious selves will always crumble. This is very obvious to anybody who is either in a high conscious state or who has been in one. If every human walking on the planet was in a high conscious state continually there wouldn't be conflict. 

 

[Illusory Self]

What's with all the games here?