is stage red conservative ?

[Majed]

is a stage red mind considered a conservative mind ? 

[aurum]

@Majed

Red can definitely be authoritarian. Think Stalin, Mao, Saddan Hussein etc. But in general I would not describe Red as conservative.

Red is not organized, cautious or dutiful. It’s impulsive and risk-taking. It doesn’t care about the status quo or existing ways of doing things. The status quo is only good for Red if the status quo serves Red. Otherwise Red is just as likely to want to topple existing power structures so that it can gain power.

Think Donald Trump vs Mitt Romney. Donald Trump does not care about maintaining the institutions of America unless he is in power. Mitt Romney does care about the status quo and American culture, regardless if he is in power.

Also consider that Red becomes Red because it looks at existing Purple tribes and decides it would be better to unify them. This is not a conservative move. The conservative move would be to preserve the existing culture and governance of the separate tribes. Red would have been a radical liberal in its day.

[Majed]

@aurum i get what you're saying. but in today's world a lot of red will be viewed as conservative in the sense that it is animal like and violent. yes relative to purple red may seem liberal, but i think that relative to today's liberals (stage green) red will seem conservative (family values, less sophistication...) i was just watching house of saddam the whole vibe is very arabic and conservative. hitler for example is a nationalist. even trump, if red didn't care about conservative or liberal but just power, then why did trump chose to be on the conservative side ? because it is more his level of development, trump can not fake being liberal even if he wanted to, people (liberals) will see through it but he can appear as conservative 

[Danioover9000]

@Majed

1 hour ago, Majed said:

is a stage red mind considered a conservative mind ? 

   In most cases yes.

[Cass Cassini]

Stage Red is authoritarian. 

[aurum]

35 minutes ago, Majed said:

@aurum i get what you're saying. but in today's world a lot of red will be viewed as conservative in the sense that it is animal like and violent. yes relative to purple red may seem liberal, but i think that relative to today's liberals (stage green) red will seem conservative (family values, less sophistication...) i was just watching house of saddam the whole vibe is very arabic and conservative. hitler for example is a nationalist. even trump, if red didn't care about conservative or liberal but just power, then why did trump chose to be on the conservative side ? because it is more his level of development, trump can not fake being liberal even if he wanted to, people (liberals) will see through it but he can appear as conservative 

Yes it’s complicated. Given that liberal and conservative are always relative, we could model things in different ways.

Red is often tied up with Stage Blue, since they are adjacent stages. A stage red / blue regime is going to seem very conservative by modern western standards.

 

[Danioover9000]

@Cass Cassini

52 minutes ago, Cass Cassini said:

Stage Red is authoritarian. 

   I assume the way in which OP is asking about if conservatives minds are like the minds of those whose value systems are stage red predominant, is from the latest video of Leo's understanding the conservative mind, which basically lists why the conservative mind is more defensive, close minded, sometimes dogmatic, because it's for their survival. Being careful to plan, organize and make routines whilst not taking risks, being adverse to risk taking and safety first in mind.

   Which, when you think about minds that have stage red values in them, typically the caricature are criminals and dictators, and some rough characters, it actually is the case they have a strongly conservative mind. The y have to be strong, and have to be very careful, guard against any possibility of some sexual assault, attempted murder or theft or whatever crime could happen to them, and have to scam or do worse to make ends meet, pay off debts and loan sharks. There's little chance or any small part of their mind to be liberal., until their environment is safe and secure enough.

[mr_engineer]

In some ways, it is more conservative. There is zero trust at Red for other people. You're responsible for your own individual safety and that's it. Damn the costs to everyone else. No sense of 'group' or 'community', it's even more conservative than caring about being nice to the people around you, in a certain sense. 

In some ways, it can be more liberal than Blue. Free indulgence in pleasure, impulsive behavior, being fun-loving, etc. (This is what Stage Blue conservatives are resisting when they're resisting liberals at higher stages.) 

What's interesting is that in the Spiral-Dynamics book, these qualities that I've associated with the Stage Red liberal, have been described as the 'exaltation' or the best form of Stage Red. 

Edited December 20, 2022 by mr_engineer

[axiom]

Spiral dynamics is arbitrary nonsense.

[Nilsi]

Red hates the status quo and will rebel for the sake of rebelling. So depending on who's in office, Red might vote conservative/liberal/socialist - whatever goes against the grain.

Red doesn't really give a shit about politics, unless it serves itself (as in the case of some infamous dictators).

Edited December 20, 2022 by Nilsi

[Nilsi]

2 hours ago, axiom said:

Spiral dynamics is arbitrary nonsense.

Just goes to show how ignorant you are.

[axiom]

7 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Just goes to show how ignorant you are.

That would be a shame, but I suppose there’s always a chance that I just understand it better than you do. 

[Oeaohoo]

37 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Just goes to show how ignorant you are.

21 minutes ago, axiom said:

That would be a shame, but I suppose there’s always a chance that I just understand it better than you do. 

*grabs popcorn* 

3 hours ago, axiom said:

Spiral dynamics is arbitrary nonsense.

What do you mean by this? Why is it arbitrary?

I agree that it is nonsense but it is worse than just being arbitrary. Like all of the models from which it inherits - evolutionary progressivism, psychoanalytic developmental studies, and various other vain attempts to fuse modern science (which is not to say the empirical approach itself) and religion - it is a systematic inversion of the truth.

[Tyler Robinson]

I don't think conservative is the right term to describe it. You can say "survival oriented." Conservative is a system that adheres to specific principles. I would call it Stage Blue with some layers of Stage Orange persistence and monopoly/monotony baked into it. 

Stage Red has elements of snatching things for oneself, zero group orientation, inclination to amass wealth and power and enslavement of the weak. Of course this is unhealthy Red. Healthy Red can be standing up for oneself and others and seeking vigilante justice and Not giving a Fuck and being very assertive and not submitting to authority, public pressure, peer pressure etc. 

There's unhealthy Red mostly but there's healthy Red too. 

You have to balance it out and take the good, leave the bad.. 

[Nilsi]

1 hour ago, axiom said:

That would be a shame, but I suppose there’s always a chance that I just understand it better than you do. 

In your dreams kid.

[Danioover9000]

   Clearly, I'm the only spiral wizard here that understands conservative minds better than you do.

[axiom]

3 hours ago, Oeaohoo said:

What do you mean by this? Why is it arbitrary?

It’s a model of the world. One model of countless models. A model is just a model, and should never be confused with the thing in itself.

Sure, it makes things bite-sized and more easily digestible. This is naturally very comforting. It provides an easily- understood and convenient recontextualisation of one’s own life. That is: the model is unlikely to be perpetuated by those self-identifying as beige.

But the apparent correctness of a model or lack thereof is always a function of resolution. Since there are always higher and lower resolutions to explore, no model can be said to be veridical or final. 

This applies to even generally unchallenged ideas such as entropy (oil and water separate into their constituent elements and thus can be seen as negentropic), so it can certainly apply to something as banal as Spiral Dynamics.

The point here is to be cognizant of resolution before over-excitedly shoehorning one’s favourite political gripes and most-disliked public figures into convenient boxes, even if it temporarily makes the world seem like less than chaos.

Edited December 20, 2022 by axiom

[Oeaohoo]

28 minutes ago, axiom said:

It’s a model of the world. One model of countless models. A model is just a model, and should never be confused with the thing in itself.

Sure, it makes things bite-sized and more easily digestible. This is naturally very comforting. It provides an easily- understood and convenient recontextualisation of one’s own life. And by this I mean : the model is unlikely to be perpetuated by those self-identifying as beige.

But the apparent correctness of a model or lack thereof is always a function of resolution. Since there are always higher and lower resolutions to explore, no model can be said to be veridical or final. 

This applies to even generally unchallenged ideas such as entropy (oil and water separate into their constituent elements and thus can be seen as negentropic)

@Nilsi This is what a postmodernist sounds like! Proof that I am not one! 

@axiom Do you believe there is such a thing as truth? Do you believe that human concepts and truth are completely orthogonal to one another, or can we at least approach truth conceptually? To me it seems that - even if, yes, truth can never be reduced to a conceptual system -  truth can nevertheless be approximated by conceptuality.

You could think of it like the “lock-on” system in films like 2001: A Space Odyssey, slowly aligning the computer’s model of things with reality. I also think that, because of the analogy between microcosm and macrocosm,  even attaining to a perfect understanding of the truth of a relatively “low-resolution” situation can naturally scale to the big picture.

[Oeaohoo]

36 minutes ago, axiom said:

The point here is to be cognizant of resolution before over-excitedly shoehorning one’s favourite political gripes and most-disliked public figures into convenient boxes, even if it temporarily makes the world seem like less than chaos.

I completely agree with this as the major flaw in the way that models like Spiral Progress are applied around here.

[Devin]

Liberal and conservative aren't strict opposites.

The opposite of conservative is progressive

The opposite of liberal is more like totalitarianism or authoritarianism

Edited December 20, 2022 by Devin