No More Conserving, Only Serving

[aurum]

52 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

When conservatives complain about something like “cultural relativism”, they generally aren’t talking about anything metaphysical. They just mean the failure of their culture to uphold the values which it once held dear.

They aren’t talking about anything metaphysical because they are not conscious of their metaphysics and how it is influencing their politics.

[Oeaohoo]

14 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

It’s impossible to be a conservative after studying Spiral dynamics. Conservatism is Blue/Orange, while liberalism is Green.

Every aspect of this is just absurd.

1) You can study a theory without agreeing with it.

2) Even within the confines of the theory, merely studying it is unlikely to change your “stage”.

3) Spiral Dynamics is just a booster pack for progressive leftism.

I could equally well say: it’s impossible to be a liberal after studying Plato’s Republic, Polybius’ Anacyclosis, Vico’s The New Science, Spengler’s Decline of the West, Guenon’s Perennial Traditionalism, and so on… You’re just putting this one stupid system on a pedestal.

1 minute ago, aurum said:

They aren’t talking about anything metaphysical because they are not conscious of their metaphysics and how it is influencing their politics.

Maybe.

I still see no reason why a metaphysical understanding of relativism has to translate to relativism in the political sense. What about the understanding of absolutism? Is there not an Absolute?

[Devin]

48 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

There is the important caveat to what I have said above: it is metaphysical, but only in so far as the culture which is dissolving was itself a vehicle for the realisation of metaphysical truth. For example, the dissolution of Christendom is simultaneously the death of Christ as a way to God.

I’m just not interested in discussing this. I don’t understand how you could have no sense of what is censored today. I also see it as somewhat irrelevant. The main thing here was poking fun at the self-satisfied liberal’s view of conservatism.

the only thing i see censored is hate, bigotry, and dangerous misinformation

[Oeaohoo]

Just now, Devin said:

the only thing i see censored is hate, bigotry, and dangerous misinformation

Yeah! Rage WITH the machine!

[Tyler Robinson]

4 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

could equally well say: it’s impossible to be a liberal after studying Plato’s Republic, Polybius’ Anacyclosis, Vico’s The New Science, Spengler’s Decline of the West, Guenon’s Perennial Traditionalism, and so on… You’re just putting this one stupid system on a pedestal.

What are your grand ideas for an ideal future? Your objectives? 

[Oeaohoo]

3 minutes ago, Tyler Robinson said:

What are your grand ideas for an ideal future? Your objectives? 

The end of what Guénon aptly called The Reign of Quantity would be a start. I don’t think that anything grand can take place until the enforcement of smallness is ended. The Last Men who surround us are deadly opposed to all greatness of character and nobility of soul!

Quote

"What is love? What is creation? What is longing? What is a star?" - thus ask the last men, blinking.
For the earth has now become small, and upon it hops the last man, who makes everything small. Their kind are as ineradicable as the flea: the last man lives longest.
"We have discovered happiness!" - say the last men, blinking.
They have left the places where the living was hard: for one needs the warmth. One still loves one's neighbour and rubs oneself against him: for one needs the warmth.
To fall ill and harbour suspicion is in their eyes sinful: one must proceed with caution. A fool, whoever still stumbles over stones or humans!
A little poison now and then: that makes for pleasant dreams. And a lot of poison at last, for a pleasant death.
They still work, for work is entertainment: but they take care that the entertainment does not become a strain.
Nobody grows rich or poor anymore: both are too burdensome. Who still wants to rule anymore? Who wants to obey? Both are too burdensome.
No sheperd and one herd! Everybody wants the same, everybody is the same: whoever feels differently goes voluntarily into the madhouse.
"Formerly, the entire world was mad" - say their finest, blinking.
They are clever and know everything that has ever happened, so there is no end to their mockery. They still quarrel, but they soon make up - else it is bad for the stomach.
They have their little pleasure for the day and their little pleasure for the night, but they respect health.
"We have discovered happiness!" - say the last men, blinking.

The Last Man is the absolute antithesis of grand plans and aspirations. For so long as he rules, aspiration must be a private affair.

[Romanov]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

When a conservative cries about fairness, they only mean, "Fairness for me".

To care about fairness for everyone require a deep grasp of relativity, which conservatives are not capable of. If they were, they would be liberals.

Show me one conservative who grasps relativity.

Oxymoron. 
 

For real though I think the only reconciliation between liberals and conservatives is both realizing that relativism is the only absolute. 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Romanov

[Oeaohoo]

http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/public/articles/The_Contradiction_of_Relativism-by_Frithjof_Schuon.aspx

[Romanov]

9 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/public/articles/The_Contradiction_of_Relativism-by_Frithjof_Schuon.aspx

Look at the problems of absolutism. I know many people such as Jordan Peterson and the like enjoy going around saying relativism this, relativism that. But absolutism is also a thing. 
 

How do you prove an absolute? You can’t have absolutes without a god or ultimate authority to be “the status quo”. Conservatives who profess that they are atheistic/agnostic are only bullshitting themselves. It’s like a liberal going around preaching that homosexuality is a sin whilst calling themselves a liberal. 
 

The key to the absolute is through relativity. 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Romanov

[Oeaohoo]

7 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/public/articles/The_Contradiction_of_Relativism-by_Frithjof_Schuon.aspx

From this essay:

“Be that as it may, one of the noteworthy traits of the twentieth century is the confusion, now habitual, between evolution and decadence: there is no decadence, no impoverishment, no falsification that people do not try to excuse with the aid of the relativistic argument of “evolution”, reinforced as this is by the most inappropriate and erroneous associations. Thus relativism, cleverly instilled into public opinion, paves the way for all kinds of corruption while at the same time keeping watch lest any kind of healthy reaction might put the brakes on this slide toward the abyss.”

YES! Pure truth! There we have it - a Conservative who grasps contemporary relativism to the point of understanding its absurdity!

[Romanov]

12 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

From this essay:

“Be that as it may, one of the noteworthy traits of the twentieth century is the confusion, now habitual, between evolution and decadence: there is no decadence, no impoverishment, no falsification that people do not try to excuse with the aid of the relativistic argument of “evolution”, reinforced as this is by the most inappropriate and erroneous associations. Thus relativism, cleverly instilled into public opinion, paves the way for all kinds of corruption while at the same time keeping watch lest any kind of healthy reaction might put the brakes on this slide toward the abyss.”

YES! Pure truth! There we have it - a Conservative who grasps contemporary relativism to the point of understanding its absurdity!

Check out the absurdity of absolutism.
 

https://houston.innovationmap.com/the-big-idea-university-research-explainedflushing-out-absolutism-in-science-2658467232.html

https://aeon.co/ideas/the-danger-of-absolute-thinking-is-absolutely-clear

https://www.healthline.com/health/mental-health/black-and-white-thinking

 

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Romanov

[Oeaohoo]

5 minutes ago, Romanov said:

How do you prove an absolute? You can’t have absolutes without a god or ultimate authority to be “the status quo”.

Heaven forbid!

The ultimate goal of life is to escape the subjective state of relativism and realise the Absolute Truth! Subjective relativism is the endless wheel of generation; Absolute Truth is liberation.

6 minutes ago, Romanov said:

Look at the problems of absolutism. I know many people such as Jordan Peterson and the like enjoy going around saying relativism this, relativism that. But absolutism is also a thing. 
Conservatives who profess that they are atheistic/agnostic are only bullshitting themselves.

Of course. It is ridiculous to oppose relativism if you aren’t opposing it with something absolute. I, like Schuon in that essay, am opposing relativism from the perspective of an esoteric universalism, not from the perspective of a mediocre “classic liberal” conservatism which itself knows very little of what lies beyond the relative plane.

Also, an objective view of things today ought to reveal that there can be no return to an absolutist Christianity, which is implicit in someone like JP’s critique of relativism. Even if it could be enforced, it would require an extreme tyranny which would not be spiritually fruitful. I’m just denying the idea that the new-fangled relativism represents some great advancement.

[Devin]

43 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

Yeah! Rage WITH the machine!

by definition conservative is "raging WITH the machine"

[Oeaohoo]

1 minute ago, Oeaohoo said:

Also, an objective view of things today ought to reveal that there can be no return to an absolutist Christianity, which is implicit in someone like JP’s critique of relativism. Even if it could be enforced, it would require an extreme tyranny which would not be spiritually fruitful. I’m just denying the idea that the new-fangled relativism represents some great advancement.

I will even admit that, precisely for this reason, conservative complaints against “cultural relativism” are fuel for the fire of liberalism. Any intelligent person today knows that, short of a divine intervention, the present society is on the course of relativism. One of the reasons I admire people like Schuon and Guénon is that they understood this. They were able to uphold a Traditional perspective whilst acknowledging the water we swim in, which is cultural relativism.

1 minute ago, Devin said:

by definition conservative is "raging WITH the machine"

Not when the machine has been hijacked by liberals.

[Romanov]

13 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

Heaven forbid!

The ultimate goal of life is to escape the subjective state of relativism and realise the Absolute Truth! Subjective relativism is the endless wheel of generation; Absolute Truth is liberation.

According to who though? This is how religions are fabricated. Christianity literally conveys this exact same message, just with different words. Subjective relativism=hell and Absolute Truth=heaven. Repent or forever burn in subjective relativism! The relativistic devil is among us to twist and pervert the absolute! 
 

You cannot have the absolute without the relative, they are ultimately one. The absolute lies beyond the duality of absolute and relative. 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Romanov

[Oeaohoo]

3 minutes ago, Romanov said:

According to who though? This is how religions are fabricated. Christianity literally conveys this exact same message, just with different words. Subjective relativism=hell and Absolute Truth=heaven.

So what? Better than the pseudo-religions of evolutionary progressivism and humanitarian egalitarianism.

4 minutes ago, Romanov said:

You cannot have the absolute without the relative, they are ultimately one. The absolute lies beyond the duality of absolute and relative. 

So why prioritise one over the other? If the absolute is half of existence, why are you so keen to organise society relativistically?

[Devin]

13 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

 

Not when the machine has been hijacked by liberals.

yes, that would make you a progressive, wanting to change the status quo, and the machine supporters are the conservatives.

[Romanov]

9 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

So what? Better than the pseudo-religions of evolutionary progressivism and humanitarian egalitarianism.

So why prioritise one over the other? If the absolute is half of existence, why are you so keen to organise society relativistically?

Answer to your first sentence: I see how the absolutist religion of Christianity is doing. It’s so absolutist that its followers can’t even get on the same page. Not only is every religion exclusive causing division but they’re all also internally divided. You’ve got the Catholics, the Protestants, the Mormons, etc. One single book man and hundreds of denominations. Why is that? Why are they all heretics in each other’s eyes? They preach about how the devil is responsible for division while they claim exclusivity. Isn’t that called hypocrisy? 
 

And to answer your second sentence: have you ever heard the saying, “The only constant is change”? That is why we are keen on organizing society relativistically. It’s the only thing that’s ever been, people and groups just happen to resist it throughout history, but it continues whether they like it or not. The ego resists it because its job is to resist what is. 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Romanov

[Romanov]

6 minutes ago, Devin said:

yes, that would make you a progressive, wanting to change the status quo, and the machine supporters are the conservatives.

 

[Oeaohoo]

Just now, Devin said:

yes, that would make you a progressive, wanting to change the status quo, and the machine supporters are the conservatives.

Come on… That is just a silly word game, on the basis that anyone who wants to change the status quo is a progressive.

We all know that certain historical trends have taken place over the last years, decades or in some cases even centuries which certain people regard as positive and others as negative: the former are progressives, the latter are conservatives. Society is increasingly ruled by people of the former camp. Most so-called “conservatives” are only conserving yesterday’s progressive victories, hence the joke: conservatism is progressivism driving the speed limit.

3 minutes ago, Romanov said:

Answer to your first sentence: I see how the absolutist religion of Christianity is doing. It’s so absolutist that its followers can’t even get on the same page. Not only is every religion exclusive causing division but they’re all also internally divided. You’ve got the Catholics, the Protestants, the Mormons, etc. One single book man and hundreds of denominations. Why is that? Why are they all heretics in each other’s eyes? They preach about how the devil is responsible for division while they claim exclusivity. Isn’t that called hypocrisy? 

Yes, Christianity is senile. Like an old man, it’s body is falling apart.

Everything dies. Welcome to reality - and away from Spiral Progress fantasy world where everything just gets better forever!

5 minutes ago, Romanov said:

“The only constant is change”? That is why we are keen on organizing society relativistically.

Why not have something within society which points to that constant? A priestly class, an initiated esoteric elite, perhaps…

7 minutes ago, Romanov said:

It’s the only thing that’s ever been, people and groups just happen to resist it throughout history, but it continues whether they like it or not. 

As your saying points out, there are so many universal features underlying this change. I still don’t understand why you want to focus on the relative. (I mean, I do understand. Like many people today, you clearly have some kind of personal complaint with dogmatic religion and are rebelling against this. Fine, but I’m not interested in that).