'Throw your bible in the bin lad'

[mr_engineer]

If what he's saying is true, the West is not a secular society anymore. Cuz a secular society respects all religions, while reserving the right to be atheist. This is starting to look like atheism is the new religion! Embarking on a holy war against Christianity. 

What this shows us, is that 'atheist' is not necessarily 'secular'. 

[How to be wise]

3 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

Cuz a secular society respects all religions,

How did you come to that? Religion has a lot of negative in it, and should rightly be criticised. 

[mr_engineer]

14 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

How did you come to that? Religion has a lot of negative in it, and should rightly be criticised. 

'Religion', the way I use it, means, any and all beliefs about God, belief in God, etc. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with religion. And secularism is supposed to respect people's right to believe what they want/practice what they want. (as long as they don't infringe upon someone else's rights) 

It's the limited way in which mere mortals interpret God's teachings and implement them in society that's the real issue. 

You can feel free to criticize religion. But, my request is to not disrespect it by throwing holy books on the ground/in the trash-bin. That's very offensive. It makes a statement saying 'I hate your religion'. Essentially, it's hate-speech towards their God. Or, towards God itself, as the case may be. 

If you don't want the books, return them/donate them to a church. 

[Epikur]

24 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

'Religion', the way I use it, means, any and all beliefs about God, belief in God, etc. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with religion. And secularism is supposed to respect people's right to believe what they want/practice what they want. (as long as they don't infringe upon someone else's rights) 

It's the limited way in which mere mortals interpret God's teachings and implement them in society that's the real issue. 

You can feel free to criticize religion. But, my request is to not disrespect it by throwing holy books on the ground/in the trash-bin. That's very offensive. It makes a statement saying 'I hate your religion'. Essentially, it's hate-speech towards their God. Or, towards God itself, as the case may be. 

If you don't want the books, return them/donate them to a church. 

Actually it is just a pay back for thousands of years of religios brainwashing and idiocracy. So it makes some sense. Secular systems allowed religion because religion was still too strong too outlaw it's problematic parts at least. People who do stupid things because of religion get a pass because they are still too strong. They are kind of above the law.

[mr_engineer]

1 hour ago, Epikur said:

Actually it is just a pay back for thousands of years of religios brainwashing and idiocracy. So it makes some sense. Secular systems allowed religion because religion was still too strong too outlaw it's problematic parts at least. People who do stupid things because of religion get a pass because they are still too strong. They are kind of above the law.

1. Law comes from religion. So, outlawing the problematic parts of religion (Of which there are many, I agree with you there) requires equivocal agreement from the majority.

2. When it comes to the parts that aren't that problematic, why do you want to outlaw that? 

3. Do keep in mind that religion is responsible for the concept of 'God'. Religion is the reason we can have any discussion of God at all. The same goes for any discussion of 'meaning' or 'Life-Purpose'. The whole idea of a Life-Purpose is that it's God-given, it's a pre-birth intention, something that's beyond yourself, beyond your petty human identity. For that, you'd have to entertain the idea of reincarnation. Also only possible thanks to religion. 

4. You don't get past Stage Red without religion. There comes a point in Stage Red where you need someone to come up with the concept of a 'supernatural entity' that's above all humans and that hands down a set of commandments, saying that 'rape and pillage is wrong, you will go to hell after you die if you do it'. Ultimately, all morality is human. But, you need people to attribute a governing morality to an authority-figure/entity that is not human, that is above all humans, so that you can justify forcing all humans to follow it. This is why the idea of 'God' the way it's portrayed in religion. (At Red, every human is their own God. But, because they're not perfect, they abuse their power in any system they enter, cuz they're acting out of ego. And they form their morality on the fly to justify it. But, at Blue, you have to build the discipline to prioritize your morality/values over your ego, because 'the morality came from God, not yourself'. Accountability becomes possible only at Blue, it even has any meaning only at Blue, cuz shame becomes a thing at Blue, and integrity becomes important and 'virtuous' at Blue for this reason. At Red, integrity is not virtuous. Whatever serves your own self-interest is virtuous!) 

My point is that there are a lot of very important functions that religion serves in society. And there are very important, pragmatic reasons people hold onto it. Don't be naive about it. 

[How to be wise]

@mr_engineer If you believe that Moses literally parted the Red Sea, then you are deluded. I’m not trying to be offensive, I’m just stating the basic facts. 

[mr_engineer]

1 minute ago, How to be wise said:

@mr_engineer If you believe that Moses literally parted the Red Sea, then you are deluded. I’m not trying to be offensive, I’m just stating the basic facts. 

That's a fair argument. And, when you say you're not trying to be offensive, I believe you. 

Having said that, what do you think about this behavior of throwing the Bible into the trash-bin? Is that offensive? Here, in India, very much so. 

[How to be wise]

@mr_engineer It’s offensive to Christians, but people should have the freedom to do that. There’s a difference between attacking Christianity and attacking Christians. The former should be allowed, the latter strictly prohibited. 

[mr_engineer]

5 hours ago, How to be wise said:

@mr_engineer It’s offensive to Christians, but people should have the freedom to do that. There’s a difference between attacking Christianity and attacking Christians. The former should be allowed, the latter strictly prohibited. 

An attack on Christianity is an attack on the collective of Christians. Because being a 'Christian' is their psychological identity. 

This is not a criticism in a debate-setting, where they're listening to you with an open mind. This is a desecration of their holy-book we're talking about. 

I don't know about there but if someone did that here, riots would happen between different religions. 

Edited December 17, 2022 by mr_engineer

[Romanov]

If atheism is the new religion then how come neither you or I have seen any atheists killing each other over who lacks the belief in a god the most? 
 

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Romanov

[Danioover9000]

@Romanov

33 minutes ago, Romanov said:

If atheism is the new religion then how come neither you or I have seen any atheists killing each other over who lacks the belief in a god the most? 
 

 

   Atheism is the new religion because most atheists are not aware that they have constructed their self identity, and the majority of atheists believe in an abscence of God, and for the most part only follow those who are persuasive and convincing in their rhetoric and argumentation, and quickly deffer to authority in terms of Science and scientific advances. Because of how mucb more efficiently Science corrects itself as a modal than religion, the big bang, human brain and evolution of life modals are worshipped largely in modern society.

   All this because of the stage of development, cognitive and moral development, personality typing, ego development, life experiences and other lines of development. Worldviews, beliefs systems, and indoctrination in one's upbringing are significant factors.

[Danioover9000]

@mr_engineer

12 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

If what he's saying is true, the West is not a secular society anymore. Cuz a secular society respects all religions, while reserving the right to be atheist. This is starting to look like atheism is the new religion! Embarking on a holy war against Christianity. 

What this shows us, is that 'atheist' is not necessarily 'secular'. 

   Yes, that's pretty offensive, and a shame, the book looked nice. What did the book ever do to you bro?

   #bookslivesmatter.

[Romanov]

33 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Romanov

   Atheism is the new religion because most atheists are not aware that they have constructed their self identity, and the majority of atheists believe in an abscence of God, and for the most part only follow those who are persuasive and convincing in their rhetoric and argumentation, and quickly deffer to authority in terms of Science and scientific advances. Because of how mucb more efficiently Science corrects itself as a modal than religion, the big bang, human brain and evolution of life modals are worshipped largely in modern society.

   All this because of the stage of development, cognitive and moral development, personality typing, ego development, life experiences and other lines of development. Worldviews, beliefs systems, and indoctrination in one's upbringing are significant factors.

How does one believe in the absence of God? Well, I suppose if you’re referring to positive atheism which claims that there is no God. Even to that I would still ask for evidence that there is no god. But by original definition, even an agnostic is atheistic because they lack the belief in a God. 
 

Every mystic is a true atheist by definition. Just ask OSHO or Tolle if they believe in an Abrahamic god. 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Romanov

[Epikur]

20 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

1. Law comes from religion. So, outlawing the problematic parts of religion (Of which there are many, I agree with you there) requires equivocal agreement from the majority.

2. When it comes to the parts that aren't that problematic, why do you want to outlaw that? 

3. Do keep in mind that religion is responsible for the concept of 'God'. Religion is the reason we can have any discussion of God at all. The same goes for any discussion of 'meaning' or 'Life-Purpose'. The whole idea of a Life-Purpose is that it's God-given, it's a pre-birth intention, something that's beyond yourself, beyond your petty human identity. For that, you'd have to entertain the idea of reincarnation. Also only possible thanks to religion. 

4. You don't get past Stage Red without religion. There comes a point in Stage Red where you need someone to come up with the concept of a 'supernatural entity' that's above all humans and that hands down a set of commandments, saying that 'rape and pillage is wrong, you will go to hell after you die if you do it'. Ultimately, all morality is human. But, you need people to attribute a governing morality to an authority-figure/entity that is not human, that is above all humans, so that you can justify forcing all humans to follow it. This is why the idea of 'God' the way it's portrayed in religion. (At Red, every human is their own God. But, because they're not perfect, they abuse their power in any system they enter, cuz they're acting out of ego. And they form their morality on the fly to justify it. But, at Blue, you have to build the discipline to prioritize your morality/values over your ego, because 'the morality came from God, not yourself'. Accountability becomes possible only at Blue, it even has any meaning only at Blue, cuz shame becomes a thing at Blue, and integrity becomes important and 'virtuous' at Blue for this reason. At Red, integrity is not virtuous. Whatever serves your own self-interest is virtuous!) 

My point is that there are a lot of very important functions that religion serves in society. And there are very important, pragmatic reasons people hold onto it. Don't be naive about it. 

1. No it does not require agreement. Stupid stuff can be outlawed by force.

2. The not so problematic parts do not have to be outlawed but ridiculed and mocked depending on the stupidity.
3. There is no god. In a meaningless word it can be helpfull to believe that.
4. You do not need god for that. It makes it even harder to think clear with believing in god because it is irrational. Religios people say the most idiotic stuff.

[DocWatts]

Seems to be some confusion here about what Secularism actually entails.

Characterizing secularity as being fundamentally atheistic in nature is a mischaracterization, regardless of whether it's religious or atheistic folks who are conflating these two things. If Secularism is being used to proselytize for Atheism, it is being misused for that purpose.

Secularism is what allows diverse groups of people with different customs and beliefs to peacefully coexist within a larger community. The way this is done is by making sure that institutions which provide social stability are founded on humanistic values, rather than on religious values which favor one group at the expense of all others.

Edited December 17, 2022 by DocWatts

[Romanov]

1 hour ago, DocWatts said:

Seems to be some confusion here about what Secularism actually entails.

Characterizing secularity as being fundamentally atheistic in nature is a mischaracterization, regardless of whether it's religious or atheistic folks who are conflating these two things. If Secularism is being used to proselytize for Atheism, it is being misused for that purpose.

Secularism is what allows diverse groups of people with different customs and beliefs to peacefully coexist within a larger community. The way this is done is by making sure that institutions which provide social stability are founded on humanistic values, rather than on religious values which favor one group at the expense of all others.

If religions especially the Abrahamic ones are to be accepted among others by modern secular society, they have to realize that they will no longer be the superior or correct one. Something’s gotta give. 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Romanov

[mr_engineer]

4 hours ago, Epikur said:

1. No it does not require agreement. Stupid stuff can be outlawed by force.

What happens when the people who are attached to it protest against it? What happens if that number is greater than some progressive dictator's numbers? 

4 hours ago, Epikur said:

3. There is no god. In a meaningless word it can be helpfull to believe that.

Prove to me that there is no God. Or that the world is meaningless. 

4 hours ago, Epikur said:

4. You do not need god for that. It makes it even harder to think clear with believing in god because it is irrational. Religios people say the most idiotic stuff.

You do need God for it. With God, comes a certain mythology. Your cultural identity is based on that. And, this is very important to keep a cultural cohesion, to develop a sense of togetherness as a people. 

This is very important for people to be attached to the collective and to feel any sense of responsibility/duty towards their collective. 

Mythology serves the function of giving simplistic answers to people's profound, metaphysical questions. To people who have the questions but who aren't very thirsty for the answers, who just want to do some armchair-philosophy and move on with their lives. Mythology is core to your self-concept, your idea of who you are, if not a petty human. It gives you something to aspire to when you go about trying to stand for something greater than yourself. It presents these idealistic characters to you who were absolutely selfless and courageous, etc. 

[Epikur]

10 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

What happens when the people who are attached to it protest against it? What happens if that number is greater than some progressive dictator's numbers? 

Prove to me that there is no God. Or that the world is meaningless. 

You do need God for it. With God, comes a certain mythology. Your cultural identity is based on that. And, this is very important to keep a cultural cohesion, to develop a sense of togetherness as a people. 

This is very important for people to be attached to the collective and to feel any sense of responsibility/duty towards their collective. 

Mythology serves the function of giving simplistic answers to people's profound, metaphysical questions. To people who have the questions but who aren't very thirsty for the answers, who just want to do some armchair-philosophy and move on with their lives. Mythology is core to your self-concept, your idea of who you are, if not a petty human. It gives you something to aspire to when you go about trying to stand for something greater than yourself. It presents these idealistic characters to you who were absolutely selfless and courageous, etc. 

Religion is a survival mechanism for backwards people. After a certain intellectual level it feels like the 'cargo cult' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult. 

[Danioover9000]

   What is religion? What does Destiny actually stand for?