Atoms

[Jannes]

One thing that prevented me from disproving the existence of a physical reality are atoms. You can prove the existence of atoms with experiments and to my knowledge you can even somewhat see them with the best high end microscopes. 
For some reason I thought that if we can experience atoms (through a microscope for example) that this means that the physical objective world really exists (as something outside of consciousness) because it is actually grounded in first order truth. But there really isn’t anything special about atoms. Seeing them through a microscope is just an experience like every other experience. It is okay that they exist, they totally can, it doenst prove however that they exist as something outside of consciousness. The thought that this experience (seeing atoms) is actually real (points to something outside of consciousness) is also just a conscious experience like any other. Maybe the hard thing I couldn’t wrap my mind around was that consciousness has so many layers which appear to be separate because they can’t get connected (mind matter problem) and therefore thought that it can’t all be consciousness. 
I remember a quote I got from a forum member: „Consciousness is both Creator and Creation. The seemingly appearent seperation is an Illusion.“ Maybe that finally sank in a little deeper for me. 

[Space]

@Jannes Yea saying reality is made of atoms doesn't explain anything. Because what are atoms? It's the same question all the way down (what is anything?), so really you don't have to go down to any particular level or scale to understand reality. Just answer the question, what is a tree?

The game character analogy always works well here. The game character can do science for a trillion years trying to understand the nature of his reality, but fundamentally it was always just right there in front of him. More science and thinking is just more delusion.

 

[Jannes]

On 16.12.2022 at 3:04 PM, Space said:

@Jannes Yea saying reality is made of atoms doesn't explain anything. Because what are atoms? It's the same question all the way down (what is anything?), so really you don't have to go down to any particular level or scale to understand reality. Just answer the question, what is a tree?

These thoughts are on my "favorite-thoughts-playlist“ at the moment.  

Edited December 20, 2022 by Jannes

[Space]

15 hours ago, Jannes said:

These thoughts are on my "favorite-thoughts-playlist“ at the moment.  

[Leo Gura]

An atom is a figment of consciousness, no different than the smell of a skunk.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Jannes]

51 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

An atom is a figment of consciousness, no different than the smell of a skunk.

Even though that is true, the thing that makes atoms different is, if you zoom into the smell particles of a skunk you will find atoms there. Just like with any other object you will find atoms there. It’s a consistent dream. Now explain a materialist that this consistency doenst imply truth. It’s very tricky. 

[Aaron p]

Leo's series about quantum mechanics talks about atoms and the double slit experiment...one of the primary pointers I took away from those videos was that even modern theoretical science (quantum mechanics) states that atoms are literally not solid objects but waves until they are observed, at which point your observation of them crystallises them and they form into objects. It says that when you look at something you literally cause it to take form. 

[Leo Gura]

8 hours ago, Jannes said:

 if you zoom into the smell particles of a skunk you will find atoms there. 

Only in your imagination.

[Jannes]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Only in your imagination.

Well you can actually zoom into the smell particles of the skunk with a microscope and find molecules and even blurry atoms directly. That the atom state of consciousness and the outzoomed smell particles state of consciousness are connected in any way is the imagination part. (That zooming in and out is happening is imagination)

Edited December 22, 2022 by Jannes

[Yimpa]

15 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Well you can actually zoom into the smell particles of the skunk with a microscope and find molecules and even blurry atoms directly. That the atom state of consciousness and the outzoomed smell particles state of consciousness are connected in any way is the imagination part. (That zooming in and out is happening is imagination)

It is, quite literally, all imagination. 
 

Also, I failed science class, so I have no idea what atoms are 

[Jannes]

6 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

It is, quite literally, all imagination. 
 

Also, I failed science class, so I have no idea what atoms are 

Well there is first order truth (direct experience) and second order truth [concepts about reality (first order truth)].
The point of materialists is that second order truth isn’t just a second-order-truth-concept but actually real. And atoms make it hard to debunk that theory because you can consistently make first order truth experience of atoms if you zoom into anything. So you have to drop such basic sense making of reality like „If you move forward to an object in front of you you come closer to that object“ to debunk materialism (atoms).

 

[Yimpa]

46 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Well there is first order truth (direct experience) and second order truth [concepts about reality (first order truth)].

It’s all consciousness. The first, the second, and even the 1000th order and beyond. 

[Jannes]

10 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

It’s all consciousness. The first, the second, and even the 1000th order and beyond. 

Of course second order truth is part of the experience (first order truth). 
The thought „there is an apple“ is second order truth because in reality there is not actually an apple but „thinking there is an apple“ is an experience and therefore first order truth. 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Jannes said:

Well you can actually zoom into the smell particles of the skunk with a microscope and find molecules and even blurry atoms directly. That the atom state of consciousness and the outzoomed smell particles state of consciousness are connected in any way is the imagination part. (That zooming in and out is happening is imagination)

ONLY in YOUR imagination!

[Jannes]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

ONLY in YOUR imagination!

Yes I imagine that when I zoom into any given object I find atoms and I imagine that other people exist who can do that with every object as well. It’s a pretty compelling imagination that I imagine atoms with such consistency in everything. 
I didn’t say that it proves the existence of a physical universe, my thread was about pointing out why it is so easy to believe that the physical universe is real which is because atoms are imagined so consistently. 
 

@Leo Gura Maybe to clear out some misunderstanding. Do we call first order truth also imagination? For example when I experience an "atom“ through a microscope (shapes and colors) is that imagination or is only the contextualization that This is an atom imagination? 
 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Jannes

[Arthogaan]

Atom = Perception of Atom = Perception = Consciousness = Imagination.

Atom = Imagination

[Fadl]

On 22/12/2022 at 4:50 AM, Leo Gura said:

ONLY in YOUR imagination!

That's your imagination too ..

debunked if you can. 

[Maru]

I always think its kind of funny that the so called atom, the basic building block of chemistry is 99.9~% emptiness.
Or so the science people say.

I wonder what percentage of that atom its non emptiness is also empty when you start cutting it in even smaller pieces. 


 

[Yimpa]

2 hours ago, Fadl said:

That's your imagination too ..

debunked if you can. 

Nothing to debunk there, lol.