Is the work of David Hawkins worthwhile?

[The Mystical Man]

The map of consciousness doesn't explain consciousness itself, but it gives insight into human behavior. I think it's solid.

[Ulax]

14 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You have no way of validating whether his scale is correct. You're just taking his word for it.

In fact, his scale is pretty easy to invalidate.

You cannot quantify consciousness on any scale. The attempt to do so is harmful nonsense.

@Leo Gura I can take it on as a hypothesis and test how useful it is my direct experience.

In the same way as I can do with many of your teachings.

[LfcCharlie4]

Personally prefer Ramaji's book 1000 (its stupidly long) 

Based on Hawkins work but also states how in reality you can't 'measure consciousness' and these maps are just tools like the 10 Ox Herding pictures. 

I also liked it as it was a real world account of going through the awakening process, yes it mentions teachers at every 'stage' but the personal anecdote's make it a great read

Ramaji is essentially a Non-Duality 'Nerd' who's been round the block and is over 70 now, its probably the booked that helped me the most understand why teachers say such different things. 

[Manusia]

On 19/12/2022 at 10:23 PM, LfcCharlie4 said:

Based on Hawkins work but also states how in reality you can't 'measure consciousness' and these maps are just tools like the 10 Ox Herding pictures. 

But leo said quantify

[Leo Gura]

On 12/19/2022 at 5:48 AM, Ulax said:

In the same way as I can do with many of your teachings.

My teachings do not attempt to quantify consciousness nor even try to map it out.

You have to be extremely careful with maps because they will become limits of your mind.

Even stuff like Spiral Dynamics and the 9 Stages Of Ego Dev are kinda dangerous. But Hawkin's map is extra dangerous because 1) it is so simplistic, but 2) it claims to be so precise, quantitative, and objective. Reducing people and things to numbers really goes against the whole point of spirituality.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

Ramaji's approach is also harmful and delusional because he thinks he can just slap numbers on people by reading their minds. This is beyond ridiculous and you can clearly see that Ramaji is full of shit because not even he and his students will agree on the numbers. Not only do they come up with different numbers, but then they invent stories and excuses to justify their different numbers.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Leo Gura

[StarStruck]

On 19-12-2022 at 1:15 AM, PigeonPark said:

@Leo Gura David Hawkins says that all sickness comes from the mind. I have heard other spiritual teachers say that all sickness comes from lack of love. Is ths actually true?

Everything comes from the god head (mind) so it is true in that sense. 

As for maps of consciousness. Perhaps Leo doesn’t need to use it because he is already LOC500+ but for people with lower consciousnesses these maps can be useful as a road map. Especially in the 20-200 LOC range to get out of the victim mindset  

It is just important to not be identified with the map and let it go when the time is ripe. 

[Ulax]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

My teachings do not attempt to quantify consciousness nor even try to map it out.

You have to be extremely careful with maps because they will become limits of your mind.

Even stuff like Spiral Dynamics and the 9 Stages Of Ego Dev are kinda dangerous. But Hawkin's map is extra dangerous because 1) it is so simplistic, but 2) it claims to be so precise, quantitative, and objective. Reducing people and things to numbers really goes against the whole point of spirituality.

@Leo Gura Thanks, I'll keep your perspective in mind

[Wildcattt555]

On 12/18/2022 at 2:15 PM, DocWatts said:

Saw a discussion on his book where someone described him as akin to 'Ben Shapiro writing about nonduality', which makes me wonder if I might be better off finding these insights elsewhere without wading through braindead political takes to get there...

they  meant his literal and  hyper analytical /intellectual style, not the nonexistent political content.   u wont understand hawkings.   a lot of his methods would be considered ascetic for people on this site, and will just be  dismissed as nonsense because you would never attempt them or be able to put them in a practical context to understand or confirm them. ( similar to those who criticize the idea of gurdieffs work)

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by Wildcattt555

[WelcometoReality]

His books are worth reading imo but you just have to weed out the bad stuff. His map of consciousness is more a map of feelings and how they relate to each other. It has it's uses.