Leo, please elaborate about capitalism and communism

[Devin]

3 minutes ago, Recursoinominado said:

 

You think you are free in the US? How many aren't wage slaves? Maybe 1%?

How much is the cost for the population to the US mantain itself as the most powerful country today? (not for long)

The problem is you guys don't use the same metric when you criticize communism experiences vs capitalism.

Most critics directed to communism can be applied to capitalism.

Yes we're free, ZERO% wage slaves, that's all fallacy. Slavery means involuntary, the problem here is ignorant servitude.

I don't mean China is not doing well, it is just it stymies innovation and creativity compared to a freer market

 

 

[Hardkill]

34 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Careful with glorifying China, you will look like a fool. China has many serious developmental problems that its systems will be incapable of dealing with.

The only reason China isn't North Korea is because China is NOT socialist, but capitalist. China works due to capitalism, not socialism.

But doesn't the CCP government still own many businesses in China? That's a form of socialism.

Plus, they have only a one-party system and its officially a very irreligious, atheist state. That's also a trait of socialism. 

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by Hardkill

[Recursoinominado]

3 hours ago, axiom said:

Do you see their one-child policy - and resulting demographic cliff - as something that poses economic risk to China, and if not, why not?

I am not familiar with this subject but i can say that China social engeering is very impressive, they are aware of the risks and will revert the decision as soon as they think it will benefit the country.

 

27 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Careful with glorifying China, you will look like a fool. China has many serious developmental problems that its systems will be incapable of dealing with.

 

Careful demonizing and underestimating China, you will look like a fool.

Of course China has many serious issues, which country doesn't? 70 years ago China was the poorest (capitalist) country in the world with 1 Billion people, millions dying of hunger and life expectance of 35 years.

30 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The only reason China isn't North Korea is because China is NOT socialist, but capitalist. China works due to capitalism, not socialism.

The main question when deciding if a country is Capitalist or Communist (in this case, socialist) is:

Who really rules there?

In Capitalist states like the US is the rich and powerful, they have the political influence to decide everything and that's why you guys don't have free healthcare and a good set of workers laws.

In Communist states (in fact, Socialist) like China, Cuba and the USSR is the WORKERS CLASS. Basically the super-rich cease to be super-rich and the workers take power and decides collectively everything.

BUT there is no recipe for this, in each place this will be different.

You ABSOLUTELY CAN have a "free market" to a point, you can have business owners, you can have "capitalistic goods", international trade, people do earn different salaries but if you get too rich (like a billionaire), the governement will be in your ass 24h.

This old propaganda of communism being like an outdated low-tech poor country is just that: propaganda.

That's why China is Socialist and you think it is Capitalist.

[Stovo]

@Recursoinominado Having lived in China I can tell you it's most definitely capitalist lol. 

You don't build a city like Shanghai with socialism.

 

 

[Devin]

11 minutes ago, Recursoinominado said:

I am not familiar with this subject but i can say that China social engeering is very impressive, they are aware of the risks and will revert the decision as soon as they think it will benefit the country.

 

Careful demonizing and underestimating China, you will look like a fool.

Of course China has many serious issues, which country doesn't? 70 years ago China was the poorest (capitalist) country in the world with 1 Billion people, millions dying of hunger and life expectance of 35 years.

The main question when deciding if a country is Capitalist or Communist (in this case, socialist) is:

Who really rules there?

In Capitalist states like the US is the rich and powerful, they have the political influence to decide everything and that's why you guys don't have free healthcare and a good set of workers laws.

In Communist states (in fact, Socialist) like China, Cuba and the USSR is the WORKERS CLASS. Basically the super-rich cease to be super-rich and the workers take power and decides collectively everything.

BUT there is no recipe for this, in each place this will be different.

You ABSOLUTELY CAN have a "free market" to a point, you can have business owners, you can have "capitalistic goods", international trade, people do earn different salaries but if you get too rich (like a billionaire), the governement will be in your ass 24h.

This old propaganda of communism being like an outdated low-tech poor country is just that: propaganda.

That's why China is Socialist and you think it is Capitalist.

I'm not an elitist and I don't want a 'free' healthcare system, and I don't know one person in real life that does. The people rule the U.S..

Edited December 21, 2022 by Devin

[Recursoinominado]

8 minutes ago, Devin said:

Slavery means involuntary, the problem here is ignorant servitude.

No one volunteers to be a wage-slave in the US, you just is because that's how Capitalism works.

8 minutes ago, Devin said:

I don't mean China is not doing well, it is just it stymies innovation and creativity compared to a freer market

First of all, there is no such thing as "free market", everywhere you have regulations and burocracy as it should be.

Second of all, in most inovations, the government does 99% of the work funding infraestruture, research etc. The "market" only surfs that wave and takes the credit. The government, even in Capitalist states does the heavy lifting.

Knowing that, in a Communist state, the goverment will invest HEAVILY in advancing it's technology, inovating, trying new stuff.

China is a really inovative country. If you look it up outside anti-china propaganda, you will be amazed.

In fact, every communism experience is truly inovative because you have to CREATE something completely new, there is no "how-to".

If the US learned something from China, the US would be the first second-tier country in the world in 50 years.

[Recursoinominado]

2 minutes ago, Stovo said:

Having lived in China I can tell you it's most definitely capitalist lol. 

You don't build a city like Shanghai with socialism.

Explain what you call socialism vs capitalism.

As i said before, nowhere in Marxs works you will find that a communism country can have an open (but regulated) market.

[Recursoinominado]

4 minutes ago, Devin said:

I'm not an elitist and i don't want a 'free' healthcare system, and i don't know one person in real life that does.

Then you and everyone you know are fools.

4 minutes ago, Devin said:

The people rule the U.S.

Yeah, super-rich people, they are not aliens or lizard-people altough some can be very weird.

[Stovo]

@Recursoinominado It might be helpful for you to study more on this, I don't think you have a good understanding on this subject. 

 

2 minutes ago, Recursoinominado said:

Explain what you call socialism vs capitalism.

As i said before, nowhere in Marxs works you will find that a communism country can have an open (but regulated) market.

5 minutes ago, Recursoinominado said:

 

[Recursoinominado]

1 minute ago, Stovo said:

It might be helpful for you to study more on this, I don't think you have a good understanding on this subject. 

Enlighten-me

[Devin]

21 minutes ago, Recursoinominado said:

No one volunteers to be a wage-slave in the US, you just is because that's how Capitalism works.

First of all, there is no such thing as "free market", everywhere you have regulations and burocracy as it should be.

Second of all, in most inovations, the government does 99% of the work funding infraestruture, research etc. The "market" only surfs that wave and takes the credit. The government, even in Capitalist states does the heavy lifting.

Knowing that, in a Communist state, the goverment will invest HEAVILY in advancing it's technology, inovating, trying new stuff.

China is a really inovative country. If you look it up outside anti-china propaganda, you will be amazed.

In fact, every communism experience is truly inovative because you have to CREATE something completely new, there is no "how-to".

If the US learned something from China, the US would be the first second-tier country in the world in 50 years.

There are no wage slaves in the U.S..

I said "freer" not "free".

The internet, the airplane, electricity, telephones; all of these came from private enterprise

What has China created?

[Devin]

21 minutes ago, Recursoinominado said:

Then you and everyone you know are fools.

Yeah, super-rich people,

Best healthcare system in the world by far, leading health science, people come here for care, not the other way around.

Every citizen has equal say

[Recursoinominado]

26 minutes ago, Devin said:

The internet, the airplane, electricity, telephones; all of these came from private enterprise

Nothing would be possible without the government doing the heavy-lifting.

If it wasn't the case, everyone, everywhere would be inventing some amazing things but this isn't the case.

It is needed very specific situations in order to inventions to bloom.

Including: education, security and survival being taken care of in general.

If you are homeless and hungry, you won't invent shit.

You will be worried about your next meal, as 70% of humans today.

Quote

There are no wage slaves in the U.S..

Wrong.

[Recursoinominado]

31 minutes ago, Devin said:

Best healthcare system in the world by far, leading health science, people come here for care, not the other way around.

Good in terms of science, awful in accessbility. 

Not a good healthcare "system".

32 minutes ago, Devin said:

Every citizen has equal say

Lol and you guys call communists dreamers

[Devin]

7 minutes ago, Recursoinominado said:

Good in terms of science, awful in accessbility. 

Not a good healthcare "system".

Lol and you guys call communists dreamers

You're WAY off man, it's 100% accessible.

Our country moves as the majority of people see fit, you just don't like to believe you could be wrong about issues like everyone wanting a 'free' health system, we don't want that.

Why would i want a health system that sucks? I see the people that go through it, I have no fears about it at all if I need it.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Devin

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, spiritual memes said:

@Leo Gura Would western liberal democracy have worked in china?

Maybe not liberal democracy per se -- that required evolving into -- but capitalism would have.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

@Recursoinominado Your understanding of China, socialism, and communism is so historically and academically wrong that there is no point reasoning with you.

Sounds to me like the only thing that will awaken you from your illusions is actually being forced to live under an authoritarian communist regime like that of Mao or Stalin.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

18 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Recursoinominado Your understanding of China, socialism, and communism is so historically and academically wrong that there is no point reasoning with you.

Sounds to me like the only thing that will awaken you from your illusions is actually being forced to live under an authoritarian communist regime like that of Mao or Stalin.

How is China primarily capitalistic when it has some degree of a planned economy, still has many state-owned businesses, and the means of production in the country are nationalized as well?

Edited December 21, 2022 by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Hardkill said:

How is China primarily capitalistic when it has some degree of a planned economy, still has many state-owned businesses, and the means of production in the country are nationalized as well?

The whole thing goes against the spirit of socialism, which is to equalize people, pay them fairly, and not have anyone lord over you.

In practice, in China, you are lorded over worse than in America, inequality is great, and the whole thing runs on bribes, corruption, and secret political connections and favors. You have billionaires in China who control most of the economy and are in bed with the politicians even worse than in America. China is far more corrupt than America. The whole point of socialism is to end such corruption and give little people power and freedom. Little people in China have less power than in America.

Unless you are in bed with the communist party in China, you will never be able to do serious business there.

China is capitalism with heavy top-down government controls based on corruption. It's a mixture of capitalism, authoritarianism, one-party rule, oligarchy, and nationalism. It's almost like a mild form of Nazism, or truly "national socialism" in the way that Hitler meant it.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Arthogaan]

8 hours ago, Devin said:

I'm not an elitist and I don't want a 'free' healthcare system, and I don't know one person in real life that does. The people rule the U.S..

I am totally not an expert on the issue. But anecdotally when surfing reddit I get the impresion that majority of reddit demography wants free healthcare system and many people say it is the major problem of US system. But knowing that reddit is really out-of-ordinary demography I found some survey. I am not sure how to interpret it but I think the issue is much more complex than suggesting the majority does not want it.

source: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/09/29/increasing-share-of-americans-favor-a-single-government-program-to-provide-health-care-coverage/

Edited December 21, 2022 by Arthogaan