Leo, please elaborate about capitalism and communism

[Emrie]

Leo I'm wondering. Hypothetically, if every single human being on Earth were at least Stage Yellow or even Turquoise, then could you consider communism to be possible? And would you consider it better than capitalism or even socdem?

I realize it's a big if but I'm just wondering if you think there's something fundamentally flawed in communism that just makes it impossible regardless of how developed humans are.

And if you do agree that it's possible and better, can we then agree then that what we need to be doing is working to develop humanity spiritually and through the spiral instead of just attacking all the socialists and saying "they don't understand anything!". I realize again it's very difficult and you can't skip stages and you have to meet people where they're at but we can get there, evolution happens. Or we all die to climate change in the next few hundred years.

Reforming education and legalizing psychedelics would provide a huge boost.

Of course the people currently in power don't want either of these things because that would upset the balance of power, and we can't have that.

[Leo Gura]

15 minutes ago, Emrie said:

Leo I'm wondering. Hypothetically, if every single human being on Earth were at least Stage Yellow or even Turquoise, then could you consider communism to be possible? And would you consider it better than capitalism or even socdem?

I doubt that level of development would be enough for communism.

It's hard to say, it would need to be empirically tested.

Edited December 17, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Tatyana]

21 hours ago, Hello from Russia said:

In our country people say we have better democracy than the West 

They obviously watch too much television 

[Vladz0r]

3 hours ago, Tatyana said:

They obviously watch too much television 

 

I'm just gonna say that it's counterintuitive and requires openmindedness.

I have friends from within China and people who have moved there from the US and Europe.

People are so easy to believe all the bullshit the media says about big scary China ever since Trump was elected, but can't even imagine things working in another country. People don't understand The Great Firewall and why toxic American media, which has been co-opted to start so many wars and coops in Africa and Latin America, would HAVE to be blocked in China and Vietnam. America does not represent freedom of speech, and people are finally at least realizing it from Twitter and seeing how Elon Musk continues to side with fascism and censorship when push comes to shove.

 

This guy sums it up better than I could when it comes to US Imperialism:

 

Anyway, as an American, you aren't even subject to the level of censorship and salary of Chinese people, but you can interact with native Chinese people if you really wanted to, and look into Socialism with Chinese Characteristics. There are plenty of books and YouTube videos on it. There is still a salary discrepancy for native Chinese people, despite a lot of their social support systems. Some topics are still taboo. Many western websites are blocked from access by default, but VPNs are readily available on the App Stores in Chinese on phones, for free use. Blocked, not illegal.

 

On the Uyghur stuff

By the way, the labor camps shit is propaganda pushed by the CIA's Adrian Zenz and has no merit whatsoever, and they're even using AI Generated photos with graphical errors to push the agenda now. Muslim culture is well respected and preserved in China. Did you know China actually has more mosques than most Muslim countries?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mosques_in_China - look, I even found it on freedom website Wikipedia

If anyone open-minded stumbled upon this, the Uyghur situation is due to radicalization coming from beliefs of a radical group believing in East Turkistan, and there are legitimate terrorism that has to be worked on through economic poverty alleviation strategies, and there are training centers (which the west calls prison camps)

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/countries/2022-08-31/ANNEX_A.pdf

Short Video on China's relief efforts in Xinjiang - https://streamable.com/46ykib

 

People really act like they give a flying fuck about Muslims and race equality. The news talks more about what China is supposedly doing despite no evidence, but let's remember that the United States is one of the only countries in the world that will not denounce Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance Resolution - https://usun.usmission.gov/explanation-of-vote-at-the-third-committee-adoption-of-the-combating-glorification-of-nazism/

 

I remember one time that Leo said that he hoped you would come to realize something sound shocking and mindshattering. To me it was realizing that the US was a sham and that there's an alternative in the Orient, and seeing some of my closest friends go to China to work, travel, and raise their children there. The idea that you could just work over there, be a teacher, save up 80% of your income, take high-speed trains and get to anywhere, and that your kids could have safe, affordable, multilanguage schools, without fearing a school shooter... it sounds like what the West could've been if we didn't become so mentally diseased, greedy, and gun-crazy.

It's so hilarious, because on the news we'll see all these videos about lockdowns and starvation in China that they just cycle with old reruns of footage, and then my friends in China are just streaming to me over Discord from their beautiful college campuses and downtown apartments in Hangzhou and Nanjing. People didn't even have to wear masks there most of 2020-2021 because of the zero covid policy. You just have food delivered for extremely cheap, since you don't have Private Organizations like Uber and Grubhub stealing money from working people. Just use Eleme over there. There are some issues with how the Shanghai government has been handling the reopening and reversing the Zero Covid Policy, as an issue between local and national government.

 

Still, better than in the US when people had over a million die, riots in the street, police beating down disabled people, and tear gassing children. (you can google any of these cases during Covid in the US, if you didn't see them and live under a rock)

 

I'll leave you with another cool Shenzhen video (should have spanish subs)

 

Also, Merry Christmas in case I don't come back to this thread:

 

Maybe next time I'll just post cool train videos like these

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Vladz0r

[Recursoinominado]

The problem is there is no recipe for communism, in each place, it will be unique.

People think socialism/communism should be this way or that way are just ignorant.

China is a socialism state in the extent that the rich/elite/capitalists don't rule there. They don't have much influence as far as public programs go.

A capitalist state is one where the bourguesie are actually in charge over the politicians.

So there is NEVER interest in really solving social problems, only maintenence of money and power to the same people forever.

China has raised hundreds of millions over poverty, ended hunger, jobs and houses to everyone, education, healthcare etc.

This would NEVER happen in a capitalist state, specially in one with more then 1 BILLION fucking people.

Simply because the PROFIT is the goal on a capitalist state and in a communist state, the welfare of the people is the goal.

How this is going to be achieved in PRACTICE is completely unique. Marx said this in his work very clearly.

By the way: there is elections in China.

I live in Brazil, we are the biggest producer of food in the world, we export food to the world and half our population (actual numbers) don't know when their next meal are comming.

Capitalism is best if you are the 1%, Communism if you are the 99%.

Its all a matter of which side you are.

That is observable by the data provided by communism experiences all over history, the social indicators improved radically in each one of them.

[Tudo]

On 18/12/2022 at 8:34 PM, Recursoinominado said:

 

Capitalism is best if you are the 1%, Communism if you are the 99%.

 

WTF, Communism doesn't work, how deluded you have to be to believe in this crap. Wtf, I can't believe people think this shit works.

Communism never worked and never will.  This is disgusting.

[Tudo]

On 18/12/2022 at 8:34 PM, Recursoinominado said:

 

China has raised hundreds of millions over poverty, ended hunger, jobs and houses to everyone, education, healthcare etc.

 

Bro, you are soooo deluded. It's crazy.

On 18/12/2022 at 8:34 PM, Recursoinominado said:

 

By the way: there is elections in China.

 

 

Crazyness... you have been brainwashed, you are consuming too much communism propaganda from youtube.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Tudo

[Recursoinominado]

Soon Socialist China will be the biggest economy in the world, with better social indicators than the best and most successful capitalist states based on a system that "never worked and never will".

Yeah, crazy.

Numbers and facts tend to disagree with your anti-communist propaganda.

[Devin]

19 minutes ago, Recursoinominado said:

Soon Socialist China will be the biggest economy in the world, with better social indicators than the best and most successful capitalist states based on a system that "never worked and never will".

Yeah, crazy.

Numbers and facts tend to disagree with your anti-communist propaganda.

But China's growth is based on having their society poor, if they were to leave poverty with their same framework they would lose dominance. China already is the largest economy by many metrics. China is a slave nation to the capitalist ones. Numbers don't equate to 'winning' in the real world.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Devin

[Recursoinominado]

10 minutes ago, Devin said:

Numbers don't equate to 'winning' in the real world.

I am using numbers because that's what the capitalists that says that communism doesn't work care about. And yes, China is winning and growing in alarming rates for DECADES.

China was the poorest country in 1949, during the revolution.

15 minutes ago, Devin said:

But China's growth is based on having their society poor, if they were to leave poverty with their same framework they would lose dominance.

Not true. They are actively ending poverty and improving everyday.

They also PLAN decades ahead, and their prediction are usually very conservative, in reality, they tend to be even more impressive.

Poverty is only a NEED in capitalist societies. 

https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2022/04/01/lifting-800-million-people-out-of-poverty-new-report-looks-at-lessons-from-china-s-experience

[Devin]

21 minutes ago, Recursoinominado said:

I am using numbers because that's what the capitalists that says that communism doesn't work care about. And yes, China is winning and growing in alarming rates for DECADES.

China was the poorest country in 1949, during the revolution.

Not true. They are actively ending poverty and improving everyday.

They also PLAN decades ahead, and their prediction are usually very conservative, in reality, they tend to be even more impressive.

Poverty is only a NEED in capitalist societies. 

https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2022/04/01/lifting-800-million-people-out-of-poverty-new-report-looks-at-lessons-from-china-s-experience

If they were to leave poverty, they would lose what brought them out of poverty, which is cheap labor(poverty), they would have to restructure away from communism toward capitalism to sustain being a 'winning' state. China is not even in the conversation to be compared to Europe, Korea, Japan, the states, .... (the west) except in terms of economy

[Recursoinominado]

1 hour ago, Devin said:

If they were to leave poverty, they would lose what brought them out of poverty, which is cheap labor(poverty)

That's an oversimplification. China has technology, massive investiment in education and, like i said, plans decades ahead.

They are already doing a transition as the article i posted above clearly stated (if you care to read and not just repeat the ignorant mainstream narrative about China). 

1 hour ago, Devin said:

they would have to restructure away from communism toward capitalism to sustain being a 'winning' state.

That's just dumb. Communism is exactly what makes China so successful.

In a capitalist state, the CAPITAL is king. The bourguesie has the true power and will favor it's own short-term profit even if it means the breakdown of the whole country.

In a communist state, the PEOPLE is king. Every decision is made envisioning what is best for the whole country, not just a few.

This is a long-term winning strategy. 

1 hour ago, Devin said:

China is not even in the conversation to be compared to Europe, Korea, Japan, the states, .... (the west) except in terms of economy

Again, i will repeat for the third time on this thread: China was the POOREST country of the world in 1949.

The life expectance of the chinese was 35 years and today it is 77 years.

1 billion population.

If you don't grasp the significance of this, you are being stubborn or really dumb.

[Devin]

10 minutes ago, Recursoinominado said:

That's an oversimplification. China has technology, massive investiment in education and, like i said, plans decades ahead.

They are already doing a transition as the article i posted above clearly stated (if you care to read and not just repeat the ignorant mainstream narrative about China). 

That's just dumb. Communism is exactly what makes China so successful.

In a capitalist state, the CAPITAL is king. The bourguesie has the true power and will favor it's own short-term profit even if it means the breakdown of the whole country.

In a communist state, the PEOPLE is king. Every decision is made envisioning what is best for the whole country, not just a few.

This is a long-term winning strategy. 

Again, i will repeat for the third time on this thread: China was the POOREST country of the world in 1949.

The life expectance of the chinese was 35 years and today it is 77 years.

1 billion population.

If you don't grasp the significance of this, you are being stubborn or really dumb.

Communism stymies technological growth, just compare China to the west, it's not even close. Take the COVID vaccine for example, China has struggled for decades against SARS, the west cures it in a year.

[Recursoinominado]

30 minutes ago, Devin said:

Communism stymies technological growth, just compare China to the west, it's not even close. Take the COVID vaccine for example, China has struggled for decades against SARS, the west cures it in a year.

I just told you China was the poorest country in the world 70 years ago, before the Revolution.

70 years.

China was basically in the feudal age.

Communism advanced China more in 70 then most countries in 700.

China is way more technological then Brazil, for instance.

Another fact to you that i said before in this thread:

When the USSR was founded, most part of the territory was also in the feudal age.

50 years later, it was competing with the largest economy potency in the world.

The USSR basically WON the space run in all aspects except putting a man on the moon first.

Also the military was as powerful if not more powerful than the US.

Also in 1935, the Moscow subway system was opened.

In Brazil, we had one of those only 40 years later.

[Devin]

23 minutes ago, Recursoinominado said:

I just told you China was the poorest country in the world 70 years ago, before the Revolution.

70 years.

China was basically in the feudal age.

Communism advanced China more in 70 then most countries in 700.

China is way more technological then Brazil, for instance.

Another fact to you that i said before in this thread:

When the USSR was founded, most part of the territory was also in the feudal age.

50 years later, it was competing with the largest economy potency in the world.

The USSR basically WON the space run in all aspects except putting a man on the moon first.

Also the military was as powerful if not more powerful than the US.

Also in 1935, the Moscow subway system was opened.

In Brazil, we had one of those only 40 years later.

Do you know your links poverty line is $1.90 a day?

China partnered with the West. Where would China be without the west? North Korea

USSR, yes they did those things, by enslaving the country, which keeps the trend from continuing for very long.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Devin

[axiom]

3 hours ago, Recursoinominado said:

They also PLAN decades ahead, and their prediction are usually very conservative, in reality, they tend to be even more impressive.

Do you see their one-child policy - and resulting demographic cliff - as something that poses economic risk to China, and if not, why not?

[Leo Gura]

Careful with glorifying China, you will look like a fool. China has many serious developmental problems that its systems will be incapable of dealing with.

The only reason China isn't North Korea is because China is NOT socialist, but capitalist. China works due to capitalism, not socialism.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Stovo]

Yes, the irony is that the past few decades of massive growth was due to Deng Xiaoping's reforms that embraced capitalism and free markets. 

Some of their current issues are a result of Xi Jinping reversing those policies and becoming more authoritarian.

[Recursoinominado]

3 hours ago, Devin said:

Do you know your links poverty line is $1.90 a day?

Do you know that hundred of millions fail to meet this "small standard"? Here in Brazil is at least 28 million (2021 data). Every street in each major city you will see half a dozen homeless people begging (chindren included) for food. Get out of your first world bubble, buddy. 

3 hours ago, Devin said:

China partnered with the West. Where would China be without the west? North Korea

Good for China, nowhere in Marx works he stated that in order to be a communist state, you have to isolate yourself. That's a major flaw in what you guys (including Leo) call Communism, isn't actually communism, is just what you IMAGINE it to be.

Also, usually is the west that isolates the communist country (like the US did with Cuba) and communist governments have to be extra careful due to constant attacks from outside and inside. Stalin suffered 22 assassination attempts and Fidel Castro 638. Compare that with any other modern state and you will understand if you have any amount of wisdom in you.

Also: Where would the west be without China? There is no charity here. "The west" isn't helping poor Chine, it is a mutual benefit. The only reason China is China is because the West needs it, it is because of China's power and big market.

 

3 hours ago, Devin said:

USSR, yes they did those things, by enslaving the country, which keeps the trend from continuing for very long.

You think you are free in the US? How many aren't wage slaves? Maybe 1%?

How much is the cost for the population to the US mantain itself as the most powerful country today? (not for long)

The problem is you guys don't use the same metric when you criticize communism experiences vs capitalism.

Most critics directed to communism can be applied to capitalism.

[spiritual memes]

@Leo Gura Would western liberal democracy have worked in china?