Warning: People Participating In Discords Will Be Banned

[Carl-Richard]

10 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Based on the conversations that actually took place there.

But not based on what conversations might happen in the future. Rali's discord started out exactly like this one. The madness built up slowly over time as the community isolated itself and became more cohesive. The only important difference I can think of is that Rali was way more charismatic, way smarter and way more ambitious than thisintegrated. He was a bit like Leo, but without the wisdom. However, like I've said, even if 10% of what happened to Rali's discord were to ever happen again, it would be very bad.

 

10 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Im not saying there is no overlap, but thats a silly statement. More often than not these heuristics are based on some underlying unconscious emotions and motivations, that can be totally disconnected from any actual realities.

But that applies to anything, your statements or mine.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Nilsi]

Just now, Carl-Richard said:

But that applies to anything, your statements or mine.

It was a silly argument, yes. My assessment is based in the reality of having been on that discord though, while you are just drawing conclusions based on some worst case scenario, which again, I cant relate to at all.

 

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Nilsi said:

It was a silly argument, yes. My assessment is based in the reality of having been on that discord though, while you are just drawing conclusions based on some worst case scenario, which again, I cant relate to at all.

About the cult thing, I'm drawing conclusions and recommending caution, but about the splintering community thing, you can already clearly see the negative effects. Even if the discord keeps running, at least the people will have what I've said in mind, which in itself will make it less likely to happen. That's one thing I learned from being in a cult: beliefs sneak in through the back door  And even if it has the opposite effect and they rebel against being nannied, if it does eventually turn into a cult, the lesson will hit twice as hard

Edited December 14, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, Asayake said:

If the Discord proposed suicide as the solution I would have quit it instantly.

Not if you believed it.

 

3 hours ago, Asayake said:

 Also, this forum is no guarantee to not misunderstand spiritual teachings. I'm sure people misunderstand spiritual teachings on here all the time.

True. There is not much that keeps even this place from devolving into a cult. A discord is the next step.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Asayake]

27 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Not if you believed it.

Just saying, comparing that Discord server to Heaven's gate is a strawman. I don't see why being in that Discord would have made me more likely to believe such a thing than being anywhere else, because no one I met in the Discord seemed to have that belief as far as I could tell. In fact I'm pretty sure people would have argued against me if I would have proposed that as an idea there just like on this forum. This disproportionate fear I sense here regarding the Discord posing a risk for being a cult seems more like a projection of the fear that this forum could potentially become a cult more than anything else in my opinion.

 

As far as the value of forum vs chat I think they both have pros and cons. I think it might be easier to open up about stuff in chat in a sense because you can have a casual conversation that can naturally lead to a vibrational frequency where both parties can open up more easily and share stuff with eachother and connect in a way that is not as likely to happen on a forum for some people, it can simply put feel safer. There's also less pressure in a chat to put forward well formulated ideas. Sure, this can amount to lower quality of content some of the time, but that's a part of the process, chat has a more creative and personal flavour to it while the forum feels more academic, there's great potential in chat just like in a forum.

When you put things out on the forum you know a lot of people will read and judge you based on it. In chat it can feel better to share because you feel more easily that there's other people you're connecting with there. And you can develop another kind of chemistry there because of more dynamic range with faster as well as slower replys available. The most beneficial conversations I had personally on this forum were 1 on 1 conversations through DMs or 1 on 1 chats via Discord. The forum boards seems to to be more useful for sharing insights, useful resources and sharing things like trip reports or book reviews and discussing specific topics but not as good for connecting with others which is also important for healing and spiritual growth. A benefit of the forum is that it can host a lot more people than a Discord because the conversations would become very chaotic with a huge Discord chat where as on the forum they are organized by threads and post timers. But I still think chats are better suited for connecting with and understanding others more deeply, it just feels more human, like chatting with irl friends contra communicating with them on a forum, it's a different vibe and you can get a better sense of who people are through chat than through their forum posts, because it tends to be less polished.

Forum and Discord simply have different strengths. Don't underestimate Discord just because it is new technology. Connecting with people through chat can make you understand them better which reduces conflicts based on misunderstandings which seem common on the forum.

[Carl-Richard]

34 minutes ago, Asayake said:

Just saying, comparing that Discord server to Heaven's gate is a strawman. I don't see why being in that Discord would have made me more likely to believe such a thing than being anywhere else, because no one I met in the Discord seemed to have that belief as far as I could tell.

You get more easily isolated from other influences, and the idiosyncratic beliefs get amplified and are less likely to be challenged due to the tighter social dynamics (invite-based membership, high-speed chat system, subtle dynamics through voice chat, etc.). The beliefs start out innocent, but with the right person in charge, they can turn wacky real fast without you even noticing it. And even if you retain a level of self-awareness and distance from the whole thing, your beliefs can still be affected (I experienced this first-hand). The main thing to watch out for is when the leader is deeply searching for some deeper truth like the ultimate enlightenment, and when they start developing their own views based on those experiences. While that might not look like it's the case with thisintegrated for now, the aforementioned dynamics within a New-Agey context, especially when it was spawned as a sort of self-proclaimed superior option to some other place, can still have a damaging effect on people's psyches.

As for the point about Heaven's Gate, that cult consisted of highly educated, intellectually curious and spiritually open people. When people kill themselves based on spiritual ideas (like have happened here), and when discords turn into cults (like also have happened here), it's not such a wild possibility really.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Nilsi]

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

About the cult thing, I'm drawing conclusions and recommending caution, but about the splintering community thing, you can already clearly see the negative effects. Even if the discord keeps running, at least the people will have what I've said in mind, which in itself will make it less likely to happen. That's one thing I learned from being in a cult: beliefs sneak in through the back door  And even if it has the opposite effect and they rebel against being nannied, if it does eventually turn into a cult, the lesson will hit twice as hard

There would be no splintering without this big brother bullshit.

The only cult dynamics I see is people getting shamed for talking with each other outside the confines of this forum.

I'm trying to hear you, but it's just not getting through, I'm sorry.

[Carl-Richard]

14 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

The only cult dynamics I see is people getting shamed for talking with each other outside the confines of this forum.

Maybe. But if the forum is such a garbage platform as it's portrayed to be, like a sort of glorified snail mail, then that is exactly what makes it less prone to many of the cult dynamics that I've talked about. In a way, your point is like saying that when the larger society shames people for creating cults, that's a cult dynamic. Sure, depending on how far you want to stretch the concept, that could be true, but society at large is more open, less isolated, less cohesive and less enticing than an actual cult. The main thing that makes cults appealing is what makes Discords appealing: tight-knit social communities.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Nilsi]

Just now, Carl-Richard said:

Maybe. But if the forum is such a garbage platform as it's portrayed to be, like a sort of glorified snail mail, then that is exactly what makes it less prone to many of the cult dynamics that I've talked about. In a way, your point is like saying that when the larger society shames people for creating cults, that's a cult dynamic. Sure, depending on how far you want to stretch the concept, that could be true, but society at large is more open, less isolated, less cohesive, and less enticing than an actual cult. The main thing that makes cults appealing is what makes Discords appealing: tight-knit communities.

In my mind it's more like the cult is shaming people for wanting to talk with each other outside the cult.

[Carl-Richard]

2 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

In my mind it's more like the cult is shaming people for wanting to talk with each other outside the cult.

Ok. We can qualify what that means. In what way is this place a cult?

Edited December 14, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[something_else]

23 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

The only cult dynamics I see is people getting shamed for talking with each other outside the confines of this forum.

A) Generally it’s pretty rude to go into a cafe and tell people to leave and come to your cafe instead. That’s roughly analogous to what happened.

B) I happen to think the cult risk argument is pretty valid too, but that’s harder to prove.  Spirituality/self-help communities are weird and unique in that they attract wacky people. The not so wacky people have a responsibility to look out for the wacky ones. Discord is a much easier environment for wacky people to be subtly influenced into being even more wacky

C) Dynamics that force people to be a little on edge about what they post and not just rattle off whatever is on their mind is also better for personal growth which is supposedly why we are all here.

D) People don’t want a discord server because it will help them grow, people want one because it’s a more efficient distraction

Edited December 14, 2022 by something_else

[Nilsi]

2 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Ok. We can qualify what that means. In what way is this place a cult?

It's a cult for not allowing people to talk outside this place and for monitoring private messages. This is just unnecessary surveillance. I'm not some free speech absolutist, but this is completely unwarranted in my opinion.

[Nilsi]

6 minutes ago, something_else said:

A) Generally it’s pretty rude to go into a cafe and tell people to leave and come to your cafe instead. That’s roughly analogous to what happened.

B) I happen to think the cult risk argument is pretty valid too, but that’s harder to prove.  Spirituality/self-help communities are weird and unique in that they attract wacky people. The not so wacky people have a responsibility to look out for the wacky ones. Discord is a much easier environment for wacky people to be subtly influenced into being even more wacky

C) Dynamics that force people to be a little on edge about what they post and not just rattle off whatever is on their mind is also better for personal growth which is supposedly why we are all here.

D) People don’t want a discord server because it will help them grow, people want to because it’s a more efficient distraction

This is analogous to us meeting in the cafe and deciding we want to go eat a Pizza afterward.

You are the wacky people lol

[Oeaohoo]

48 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

The main thing to watch out for is when the leader is deeply searching for some deeper truth like the ultimate enlightenment, and when they start developing their own views based on those experiences.

You’re telling us to watch out for this… on the Actualized forum? 

By the way, did I tell you about my latest Awakening? It was amazing! Like nothing anyone has ever experienced before! None of you understand! No one understands! Only I understand! Follow me, minions! Off the cliff we go!

Maybe I’m wrong but this all seems a bit hysterical to me. The idea that some people chatting on Discord was likely to lead to the formation of a suicidal millenarian cult, just because that has happened once before, stretches credulity.

[thisintegrated]

5 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

You’re telling us to watch out for this… on the Actualized forum? 

By the way, did I tell you about my latest Awakening? It was amazing! Like nothing anyone has ever experienced before! None of you understand! No one understands! Only I understand! Follow me, minions! Off the cliff we go!

Maybe I’m wrong but this all seems a bit hysterical to me. The idea that some people chatting on Discord was likely to lead to the formation of a suicidal millenarian cult, just because that has happened once before, stretches credulity.

LOL

[Carl-Richard]

6 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

It's a cult for not allowing people to talk outside this place and for monitoring private messages.

I guess.

 

6 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

This is analogous to us meeting in the cafe and deciding we want to go eat a Pizza afterward.

It's more like "I just created another cafe, and only I can decide who enters or not. I'm going to put up posters inside the walls of this cafe advertising my cafe, and I'll slip some meth in the coffee to keep them hooked. This cafe is shit. I only come here to lol at the people in it."

[thisintegrated]

1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said:

I guess.

Carl finally admits it?

[Carl-Richard]

7 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

You’re telling us to watch out for this… on the Actualized forum? 

By the way, did I tell you about my latest Awakening? It was amazing! Like nothing anyone has ever experienced before! None of you understand! No one understands! Only I understand! Follow me, minions! Off the cliff we go!

Yep. You've seen my threads about this.

 

9 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

Maybe I’m wrong but this all seems a bit hysterical to me. The idea that some people chatting on Discord was likely to lead to the formation of a suicidal millenarian cult, just because that has happened once before, stretches credulity.

I'm not saying it's likely. I'm saying you should be cautious. I'm also not saying that the cult risk is the main reason for shutting it down. It's mainly the splintering of the community. When I created my spy account, I saw how people were talking in there ().

The thing about internet anonymity is that if you don't have at least a minimum way of creating cohesion, the place turns into a toxic cesspool. Not allowing cliques to gossip outside moderated spaces is just one solution to that. You can suggest a better solution if you have one.

[thepixelmonk]

There exist countless discords within the overall psychedelic / spiritual / self-help space that have many actualized members a part of them. They are not mindless cults, they are just normal servers with normal people and operate just fine, and that's the reality of it. There will always be a demand for one because this is an intrinsic desire of how communities operate and what members want- they want to interact with one another. Rather than try and find fellow community members through these many other servers, this particular one just happened to use the messaging feature on this forum directly, which went on to spawn this topic / thread. Leo is of course free to suppress whatever he feels like within his own community, but the demand will never go away and these servers will always exist.

[Carl-Richard]

12 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Carl finally admits it?

 

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

True. There is not much that keeps even this place from devolving into a cult. A discord is the next step.