Very Paradoxical

[Razard86]

The Dumber You Get The Wiser You Become. Your ability to not see the world in the form of a specific model, allows you to see more clearly. This is very weird, but your ability to make sense of things improves when you stop being attached to any specific form of logic.

[Carl-Richard]

The wisdom of childish innocence.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Leo Gura]

That has nothing to do with being dumb.

[Thought Art]

“Not knowing” is not the same as being dumb

[vladorion]

It's that case when the dumber shit you say the wiser you feel because you think you've unplugged yourself from concepts.

[axiom]

@Razard86 "Belief is the death of intelligence" - Robert Anton Wilson.

[Breakingthewall]

beliefs, concepts, ideas, attachments, rejections, are the constituent elements of stupidity. Eliminate stupidity and intelligence remains. but it is not that simple since the mind needs that stupidity to maintain some balance. only minds that have been filled can be emptied

[Razard86]

On 12/11/2022 at 1:29 PM, Carl-Richard said:

The wisdom of childish innocence.

Glad you get it.

 

On 12/11/2022 at 1:31 PM, Leo Gura said:

That has nothing to do with being dumb.

Depends on what is being mean as dumb. To be dumb can also mean to be silent, either through the speaking or the mental chatter. So if one is silencing the mind, and not using that mental chatter to keep constructing models over what is....then maybe they won't deceive themselves from what is going on. So its all context/relational which is what you already know. So in this context...it does have something to do with being dumb. The famous phrase seek first to understand than be understood, often we use our models to understand instead of allowing what is to communicate to us on an intuitive level. That's all that is being suggested.

 

10 hours ago, axiom said:

@Razard86 "Belief is the death of intelligence" - Robert Anton Wilson.

This is definitely true, but only on an absolute level. It's okay on a relative level.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Razard86

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, Razard86 said:

Glad you get it.

I bypassed my impulse to criticize the destruction of the words 

[Razard86]

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

I bypassed my impulse to criticize the destruction of the words 

Cool I used the word dumb for many reasons. 1. Western Education believes the ability to construct models that are reliable as a sign of intelligence. They believe the ability to apply models is wisdom. 2. So Western Education believe thinking is the path to intelligence and wisdom (along with experimentation) and would look at the lack of model usage as being dumb,

Dumb can also mean silence and you could use that with speaking both externally and internally. Also the use of the word dumb would annoy people who like to weaponize its usage as a way to attack those who are their lesser (from their perspective) so it can trigger an egoic response that will seek to disagree thus revealing a bias. (I do this for fun ya know!!!)

[CultivateLove]

Look up Ken Wilber's Pre/Trans rational fallacy before you throw out the baby with the bathwater. To simply dismiss concepts and rationality before becoming proficient at them is simply a silly choice.

In a nutshell, the pre-rational stage is poor at understanding concepts and rational thinking, while the trans-rational stage has become proficient enough at both to see the limitations of them, and has transcended at included concepts and rationality, resulting in much greater ability to understand language, culture, science and ability to communicate with people at the rational stage.

Something you seem to struggle with quite a bit, without showing any signs of taking responsibility for, and until you do, you will continue to receive push-back since it comes as off as deeply arrogant and immature.

Edited December 14, 2022 by CultivateLove

[ivankiss]

It's not about being dumb or smart. It's about how attached you are to what you think you know. Can you see through it? Can you see it for what it is? Can you arrive to a "place" where it's clear as day that you know nothing and never will? That there is nothing to be known? But can you then also stand for something and speak with confidence and passion about your ideas? Balance is key.

What is paradoxical to the mind, to the heart it just is. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by ivankiss

[RickyFitts]

On 12/12/2022 at 1:11 PM, axiom said:

@Razard86 "Belief is the death of intelligence" - Robert Anton Wilson.

Now that's wisdom.

[Tyler Robinson]

Life is a paradox. 

 

[Moksha]

We already have access to vast wisdom; most of us just haven't realized it yet. It is the pathway to liberation. We have been conditioned to trust logic as the way to enlightenment, when in truth it is an obstacle. Even in relative reality, logic breaks down at the extremes of astrophysics and quantum physics. It is an ego trap when we confuse conceptualization with Mind.

There is only the One Mind and not a particle of anything else on which to lay hold...If you students of the Way do not awake to this Mind substance, you will overlay Mind with conceptual thought, you will seek the Buddha outside yourselves, and you will remain attached to forms, pious practices and so on, all of which are harmful and not at all the way to supreme knowledge.

- Huang Po

[Razard86]

3 hours ago, Moksha said:

We already have access to vast wisdom; most of us just haven't realized it yet. It is the pathway to liberation. We have been conditioned to trust logic as the way to enlightenment, when in truth it is an obstacle. Even in relative reality, logic breaks down at the extremes of astrophysics and quantum physics. It is an ego trap when we confuse conceptualization with Mind.

There is only the One Mind and not a particle of anything else on which to lay hold...If you students of the Way do not awake to this Mind substance, you will overlay Mind with conceptual thought, you will seek the Buddha outside yourselves, and you will remain attached to forms, pious practices and so on, all of which are harmful and not at all the way to supreme knowledge.

- Huang Po

I love you man, you really understand what is being presented. Yes!!! That quote by Huang Po is the correct answer!!

The pious practices is what people get stuck on....for decades chasing their tail in Spirituality.

And obviously the materialists overlay conceptual thought onto reality to force it to fit their theory.

Every answer is inside, and is given freely when the heart and mind are open to receive it. The hints are all around us constantly if we are open to receiving them. 

Edited December 14, 2022 by Razard86

[Breakingthewall]

8 hours ago, Moksha said:

There is only the One Mind and not a particle of anything else on which to lay hold...If you students of the Way do not awake to this Mind substance, you will overlay Mind with conceptual thought, you will seek the Buddha outside yourselves, and you will remain attached to forms, pious practices and so on, all of which are harmful and not at all the way to supreme knowledge.

- Huang Po

Great quote, thanks for sharing that Huang po. there is something that does not explain imo. two things happen. 1 that "students" take that unique mind as a belief so deep that they really believe they know the truth, and 2, even more subtle, that whoever has really opened up to this truth, stops being open to it and takes its realization as a belief. imo the truth must be lived in a completely actual way, not thought. This is very difficult since once you have realized the truth for a moment, there is no rest for you in the lie, but the ego barriers are solid and come back. you have to be humble enough to be patient, do the practices and not conceptualize the truth

[Moksha]

@Razard86 Exactly, anything externalized, including rituals, concepts, sensations, beliefs, and even feelings are distractions from Self-realization. The answer to our ultimate nature is carefully hidden within, and can only be directly realized.

@Breakingthewall I agree, true realization is never a belief or thought. It is direct, and indescribable. Enlightened teachers can create words as pointers, but if the words are clung to they cannot direct people to the underlying truth that they are intended to convey. I feel this is why great teachers like Ramana Maharshi choose silence and spaciousness as the most powerful pointer to truth.

[Breakingthewall]

6 hours ago, Moksha said:

true realization is never a belief or thought. It is direct, and indescribable

Yes, that's why it's difficult. It would be said that it is accessing a different dimension. to the non-dimension.

the mind is solidly structured and does not allow that openness. But as you speak, you've achieved that without psychedelics. is that so? How? Because as much as they say it's not an achievement, it is. it happens by wishing it, and by taking actions aimed at making it happen

Edited December 15, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[Moksha]

16 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

the  mind is solidly structured and does not allow that openness. But as you speak, you've achieved that without psychedelics. is that so? How? Because as much as they say it's not an achievement, it is. it happens by wishing it, and by taking actions aimed at making it happen

The conditioned mind is like a block of rough-hewn obsidian which is too dense to allow light to shine through. In the spiritual workshop it is carefully sculpted into a beautiful pane of translucent glass, and becomes a lucid medium for the Mind.

I don’t call it an achievement, because the mind cannot sculpt itself on the relative plane of its existence. It requires the vast wisdom and creativity of the Artist for the transformation to occur. Sometimes it is a careful process of spiritual practice, through which the mind is gradually shaped. Other times, as in my case, it is a cataclysmic event, which is the culmination and eventual collapse of suffering. Although initially the mind may believe it is carving itself, when the light finally floods through the Mind is realized to have been preparing its own expression all along.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Moksha