Explain to me like I am 5: How is coffee bad for you?

[Nilsi]

23 minutes ago, Roy said:

These are just bullshit ego games and rationalizations. Which is ok by the way, since we are all in the same predicament boat. What is "net positive" for you (us) may not be so great for a lot of beings around us. Human activity (currently) at it's core is fundamentally corrosive to ecology and the natural systems around us. If this isn't obvious well, there is nothing I provide to meaningfully upgrade your awareness. You'll have to come to it on your own.

Unless your work is literally directly impactful on ecology and sustainability, or shifting the consciousness of others in a positive way, chances are you are less than neutral force, or draining on the ecology like most people.

Not placing blame either, this seems to be par the course per evolution.

Actually your moralization is the bullshit ego game.

I would prefer to be a vegan like a good lil boy, but I'm trying to have an actual positive impact on the world, which is why I need to look after myself.

If veganism works for you: fine. But you obviously haven't thought this through in any meaningful way.

I said it before, but veganism is the new christianity. You preach weakness and equality and try to drag everyone down to a petty sorry state of inaction and uninspiration, just to signal how virtuous and humble you are.

You might not realize that you're doing this, but it's a tale as old as time.

[Roy]

50 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Actually your moralization is the bullshit ego game.

I would prefer to be a vegan like a good lil boy, but I'm trying to have an actual positive impact on the world, which is why I need to look after myself.

If veganism works for you: fine. But you obviously haven't thought this through in any meaningful way.

I said it before, but veganism is the new christianity. You preach weakness and equality and try to drag everyone down to a petty sorry state of inaction and uninspiration, just to signal how virtuous and humble you are.

You might not realize that you're doing this, but it's a tale as old as time.

You don't even realize how tangled you are in your own web of projections and biases. I never mentioned or told you to do anything with veganism or vegetarianism in my post.

I am not even vegan or vegetarian myself, I eat meat.

[Nilsi]

Just now, Roy said:

You don't even realize how tangled you are in your own web of projections and biases. I never mentioned or told you to do anything with veganism or vegetarianism in my post.

I am not even vegan or vegetarian myself, I eat meat.

I was acting out, but the message still holds. Your moralization is fundamentally anti-life.

I suggest you check out Nietzsches "Genealogy of Morals" or "The Antichrist" - if you dare, that is.

[Roy]

35 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

I was acting out, but the message still holds. Your moralization is fundamentally anti-life.

That's fine. The funny thing is, I was going to put that disclaimer in my first post to avoid this. I chose not to because I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt. But here we are.

You know it's telling with how quick you are acting to protect your own twisted worldview, that you would project and assign an attitude of "anti-life" to me for making a passing statement that maybe, just maybe spending $200 a week to eat 4 or 5 different animals for the sake of a diet is a bad, perhaps even dare I say, stupid idea. That isn't even a fundamentally controversial statement or moralization, just an obvious observation about reckless resource consumption.

The fact I said it (without it being addressed at anyone in particular), and you interjected to share your resentment of your bad experience with veganism and labelled me one without any sufficient reason says more about your moralization than it does about mine.

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Roy

[Nilsi]

40 minutes ago, Roy said:

That's fine. The funny thing is, I was going to put that disclaimer in my first post to avoid this. I chose not to because I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt. But here we are.

You know it's telling with how quick you are acting to protect your own twisted worldview, that you would project and assign an attitude of "anti-life" to me for making a passing statement that maybe, just maybe spending $200 a week to eat 4 or 5 different animals for the sake of a diet is a bad, perhaps even dare I say, stupid idea. That isn't even a fundamentally controversial statement or moralization, just an obvious observation about reckless resource consumption.

The fact I said it (without it being addressed at anyone in particular), and you interjected to share your resentment of your bad experience with veganism and labelled me one without any sufficient reason says more about your moralization than it does about mine.

 

 

 

I am of course dramatizing and stereotyping for the sake of the argument, but your comment is just one permutation of how this underlying slave morality manifests. So I'm happy to be an asshole and make it as salient as possible, so people can see it.

You call me resentful, yet you keep insisting how "stupid" a meat-based diet is. Meanwhile everybody in this thread being on this diet is reporting how beneficial it is for them.

Dare I say, you are possessed by the archetype of the slave? Your mind equates high animal product consumption with "immorality" and has to virtue signal, that you of course don't approve of such reckless behavior.

If you believe that the best thing you can do for the world is just being as little of a burden as possible, that's on you. But there are people with higher ambitions and if they believe they need heaps of meat to fuel and actualize those ambitions, I say: "Let them be! - Better yet: Embrace them! for they are the true saviors of the great Web of Life!"

Edited December 15, 2022 by Nilsi

[ZenAlex]

Caffeine is the main issue. If you enjoy coffee just go for decaf. If you need caffeine to get you through your day then your lifestyle likely sucks.,

[Roy]

1 hour ago, Nilsi said:

You call me resentful

Not an accusation, I simply pointed out your own admission - "I've tried veganism and vegetarianism for years, trying to get it right, but I felt like shit compared to how I feel on this meat-based diet."

1 hour ago, Nilsi said:

yet you keep insisting how "stupid" a meat-based diet is. Meanwhile everybody in this thread being on this diet is reporting how beneficial it is for them.

Something can be beneficial for someone, and still simotaneously be stupid at a systemic level. They aren't mutually exclusive. That's fundamental to a lot of selfish behavior. I won't give you any examples, I'd like you to brainstorm one and start thinking critically (without using the one we are talking about of course).

1 hour ago, Nilsi said:

Your mind equates high animal product consumption with "immorality" and has to virtue signal, that you of course don't approve of such reckless behavior.

 I simply said it's not very wise. You are jumping to assign arguments to me, I imagine because you read my statement of disbelief about people being tricked into silly fad diets, and got triggered realizing, "hey, I am one of those people!"

1 hour ago, Nilsi said:

If you believe that the best thing you can do for the world is just being as little of a burden as possible, that's on you. But there are people with higher ambitions and if they believe they need heaps of meat to fuel and actualize those ambitions, I say: "Let them be! - Better yet: Embrace them! for they are the true saviors of the great Web of Life!"

Apparently you are triggered and insecure enough with yourself you felt the need to make passive aggressive assumptions about the level of my personal ambitions, and possessions of "weakness/slavery". I don't really want to, but perhaps just this once I could stoop to your level and communicate in a language you will understand;

I make a living from being an Emergency Medical Responder and Firefighter, and am training to get my wildland firefighting certifications for this summer so I can make a direct impact on helping the environment in the face of a stark ecological situation. How is that for weakness and being anti-life/anti-human ?

You see some of us actually put our skin in the game and have the guts to call out bullshit within ourselves when we see it. That's the whole purpose of personal development work, after all. You can do it too! You don't need to have your ability to pursue your ambitions locked behind a firewall of requiring "vitality" and whatever other vague buzzwords you picked up from your favorite YouTubers. Maybe watch this old but gold video on Collective Ego and you'll see the ways you're being sucked into different groups like nutritionist cults, and why this whole topic is upsetting enough for you to want to argue and defend something as silly as what food you eat.

Maybe all that meat is like, upping your blood pressure bro 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Roy

[Nilsi]

2 minutes ago, Roy said:

Not an accusation, I simply pointed out your own admission - "I've tried veganism and vegetarianism for years, trying to get it right, but I felt like shit compared to how I feel on this meat-based diet."

Something can be beneficial for someone, and still simotaneously be stupid at a systemic level. They aren't mutually exclusive. That's fundamental to a lot of selfish behavior. I won't give you any examples, I'd like you to brainstorm one and start thinking critically (without using the one we are talking about of course).

 I simply said it's not very wise. You are jumping to assign arguments to me, I imagine because you read my statement of disbelief about people being tricked into silly fad diets, and got triggered realizing, "hey, I am one of those people!"

Apparently you are triggered and insecure enough with yourself you felt the need to make passive aggressive assumptions about the level of my personal ambitions, and possessions of "weakness/slavery". I don't really want to, but perhaps just this once I could stoop to your level and communicate in a language you will understand;

I make a living from being an Emergency Medical Responder and Firefighter, and am training to get my wildland firefighting certifications for this summer so I can make a direct impact on helping the environment in the face of a stark ecological situation. How is that for weakness and being anti-life/anti-human ?

You see some of us actually put our skin in the game and have the guts to call out bullshit within ourselves when we see it. That's the whole purpose of personal development work, after all. You can do it too! You don't need to have your ability to pursue your ambitions locked behind a firewall of requiring "vitality" and whatever other vague buzzwords you picked up from your favorite YouTubers. Maybe watch this old but gold video on Collective Ego and you'll see the ways you're being sucked into different groups like nutritionist cults, and why this whole topic is upsetting enough for you to want to argue and defend something as silly as what food you eat.

 

We just fundamentally hold different values.

I see the way you carry yourself as weak and insincere and you see me as arrogant and selfish.

Dont talk about systems thinking, when you boast about saving the environment by putting out fires. Thats just classic reductionist "here have some antibiotics for your illness and dont worry about the underlying cause of it" thinking.

Im playing a character to break your frame, but ironically youre too stuck in your stage green kumbaya group think to look your own shadow in the eyes.

So, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

[Roy]

Ahh, the good ol' "I was just trolling bro, ahahaha!" Well, since I can't know if your stupidity is genuine or not. You leave me no choice but to put you on my block list. Probably for the best. What's the saying again? Never argue with a moron because from a distance people can't tell the difference?

[Nilsi]

12 minutes ago, Roy said:

Ahh, the good ol' "I was just trolling bro, ahahaha!" Well, since I can't know if your stupidity is genuine or not. You leave me no choice but to put you on my block list. Probably for the best. What's the saying again? Never argue with a moron because from a distance people can't tell the difference?

How convenient to frame it like that.

I mean what I say. Im just fluffing it up for your own sake and my entertainment.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Nilsi

[Kshantivadin]

Good and informative thread. Thank you for asking. 

Being very passionate about coffee and now 40+ days sober, I can tell you the difference in quality of sleep is day and night, no matter the time of day of consumption of coffee. 

Since there are both amazing pros and some cons, if one wants to avoid the downsides it would be best to consume sporadically, when one needs a cognitive/physical/motivational boost to get a certain task done, but still consume it often enough so that one doesn't get "swept away" by the intensity of the stimulant, but instead knows how to ride the energy boost. 

Personally it's so very easy to use coffee and caffeine to "plug holes" in fundamental issues with health and lifestyle. It can be used to mask a bad diet, bad sleep, health problems, mental/emotional problems, etc. I would advise solving these first before engaging with any substance, otherwise one often ends up in addiction. 

Much love to y'all and thanks for the elaborate responses. 

[RendHeaven]

@Roy So many needless ad hominem attacks, my man.

I sympathize with Nilsi because it seems we share similar stories.

Ex vegan -> disasterous health consequences -> found animal based eating -> now thriving.

It's not fun to report the one thing that has healed you, only to be called "stupid," "bullshit," "insane," "disgusting."

I for one will not call you names, and I hope you will give me the same charity.

I just want to leave this comment to suggest that you may have firm conclusions despite missing an entire side of the story, which to me feels hasty and yes, insincere.

I have been in your current frame. Just last year I was advocating for a global reduction in meat consumption. I remember lecturing a slew of my friends on how ethics and dietary preferences are inseparable.

Although there was great truth in my old rhetoric, I now see that I was also myopic.

• Back then I didn't consider how eating solely plant foods could malnourish or toxify one's body, making their day to day life hyper dysfunctional (indeed, that was my own fate).
• I had always assumed that death = bad, and that contributing to death therefore made a person = selfish and discompassionate. Since I valued self-actualization and wholism - I therefore extrapolated that compassion was a necessary step in my development. And thus the surrender of animal products, the next logical step. For me, this was all assumption and ego playing a character.

I now see and occupy the opposite side of the coin.

• I, and many of my closest friends now believe (and have experienced firsthand) that eating mostly animal foods will nourish and detoxify our bodies, making our day to day life hyper functional. This difference in "vitality" cannot be so casually hand-waved away unless you personally experience the difference. If you respond to this by dismissing my claims to vitality, I say that this is precisely your closed mindedness and insincerity.
• Death is not bad. In fact, it is necessary. Contributing to death is indeed selfish (no doubting that) but not necessarily discompassionate. By siphoning all of our concern towards the animals staying alive, the trade off is that many humans may suffer. I certainly suffered. Thus being vegan is not inherently the compassionate choice. Being vegan for me was discompassionate towards myself. Allthewhile I told myself that I was "being compassionate," i.e. I was playing a character & hurting myself all at once. What about that is remotely conscious or whole? lol- there is no grounds upon which to insist that the animals staying alive trumps the health of humanity (or even the health of your current vessel).
• I've had a string of recent awakenings where the perfection of the "cycle of life," the perfection inherent to consuming animal products, was made clear to me. But of course, the perfection of veganism, the perfection of abstaining from animal products, this was also made clear to me. That is - all choices are beautiful and good. This is quite radical and opens pandora's box, so perhaps it's best we don't go there. But I just wanted to mention that this is my current, honest, understanding of the world. Judgement of various aspects of existence, and expecting people to act or be otherwise no longer resonates with me.
• I also understand that invoking the "cycle of life" is a convenient way for meat-lovers to ignore and deny their own selfishness, and to spread evil unconsciously. When I invoke the cycle of life, this is not a license to turn off awareness, and to do whatever your dirty soul craves. These days as I consume my animal products, I am highly aware of what it is that I am doing. I understand and accept that I am selfish. It never escapes me, that I am able to thrive only because I leave a trail of death behind me. I unironically do a little prayer to God before every meal for this reason, to express gratitude.
• The animal-defender would see what I've written here and still be disgusted. They would call my prayer futile, they would insist that I am stuck in post-rationalization, and that all of my consciousness talk is a mask for my own greed.
  • Perhaps that's true. I don't deny my own selfishness. I embrace it wholeheartedly, as does God, and there is nothing anybody can do about that.

You are free to tear apart my words however you'd like - but just notice this:

I see where you're coming from. Do you see where I'm coming from?

I actually accept the behaviors and proclivities and fates of all beings, including myself. Do you?

[eggopm3]

Been drinking yerba mate the last couple days instead of coffee. Pretty nice alternative so far! I also agree matcha is excellent, though it's quite expensive in comparison.

[Michael569]

@RendHeaven i think i finally understand your perspective. I was looking at it through different lense. 

And while i don't agree with it, I understand it and it makes sense now.

Thanks for taking the time to dissect ?

[RendHeaven]

3 hours ago, Michael569 said:

@RendHeaven i think i finally understand your perspective. I was looking at it through different lense. 

And while i don't agree with it, I understand it and it makes sense now.

Thanks for taking the time to dissect ?

@Michael569 I actually appreciate you so much bro. Seriously, I don't even care about being right, or having people agree with me.

I simply believe I've found answers for myself in a taboo place (eating tons of red meat) and I want to have an open discussion about it without being instantly shut out.

For context, I began veganism in early 2020 (and I supplemented to the best of my ability, kept track of all of my macros and micros on cronometer). It lasted for about 4 months as I developed many gut issues and brain fog. This was the beginning of my chronic bloating and lack of energy. I remember when I was strict vegan, there were many days where I literally couldn't even will myself to get out of bed, and I would spend the entire day lying around on my phone. At first this struck me as a willpower issue, but we will see that as I reintroduced animal products, the brainfog slowly went away...

Switched to vegetarian (lots of eggs) until the fall of 2021, thinking that I must've done something wrong by cutting out animal products entirely. But the issues persisted. The bloating especially was so bad. It would be painful, cause me to fart CONSTANTLY, and frankly looked horrible + gave me low confidence.

No matter what I seemingly did, my stomach would bulge like I was pregnant, and it was undeniable that I was eating wrong. I tried prebiotics, probiotics, more fiber, less fiber, low FODMAP, less veggies, more veggies, eating slower, chewing more, sitting on the toilet for hours/day and literally nothing would work.

In fall of 2021, I caved and began eating meat. I ate chicken and otherwise followed a diet similar to the so-called Mediterranean diet, still eating many servings of veggies. This finally began to slowly heal my 2 biggest issues - gut health and brainfog - but I still didn't feel 100%. I would continue to obsess over my ever-constant pregnancy bulge, and I would take naps in the middle of the day out of fatigue. At a certain point, I began to accept that this was normal and that I was "healthy."

I began eating purely beef, eggs, rice, and fruit in July of 2022. Here are the main benefits I've accrued:

• 2 years of stubborn chronic bloating and gut issues permanently gone
• 2 years of chronic low energy and lack of mental clarity permanently gone. In fact, I am so unreasonably zesty and energized that I unironically leap out of bed every morning. I used to take modafinil in 2021 (as a band-aid), and I can say without a doubt that now I feel as though I am on constant modafinil... except I'm not!
• Until this year, I could not gain more weight than 148lbs. I have been 148lbs or less my entire life, chronically skinny despite working out consistently and progressive overloading. Switching to this new diet, I have BLOWN UP in muscle mass. I am currently sitting at 154lbs of lean muscle mass for the first time in my life, and I attribute it to my new diet since my other habits have not changed at all. I will be 160lbs in no time.
• No more cravings. This may be the most important benefit on this entire list. Before when I was eating chicken and veggies, I would battle ice cream cravings, instant noodle cravings, chick fil a fried chicken cravings, etc. at least once a week. I would literally be internally screaming for junk food and I would either suppress the desire and deprive myself, or accept the desire and indulge. Either way it felt negative and I would think "man why am I so weak." Over the last 5 months all of my food cravings have VANISHED. Utterly evaporated. I feel NOTHING for ice cream or noodles, it's rather remarkable. In my own head I chalk it up to saturated fat being genuinely satiating and nourishing.
• I have had dandruff my whole life, and I have been using anti-dandruff shampoo for the last 5 years. I learned about the "no shampoo" trend a few years ago and tried it to devastating effects. I decided back then that I will need shampoo forever. Now, I no longer have dandruff, nor do I even need shampoo. The natural oils on my scalp seem to self-regulate for the first time ever. Again, diet. As long as this lasts I will never use any hair products!
• I have had a severe lifelong dog energy. My eyes would get bloodshot, puffy, and itchy, at the slightest touch of a dog, and it would be an overall awful experience. Historically I would have to guzzle claritin in order to touch dogs without suffering. Recently I accidentally found myself in an apartment with a dog who was all over me, and I was unprepared. To my utter shock, despite shedding all over me and licking my skin countless times, I had ZERO reaction. I was practically immune. This absolutely blew my mind. I let my friend & mentor Jason know what happened and he chuckled at my surprise. Apparently this is a common anecdote from people who increase their saturated fat intake and lower their polyunsaturated fat intake. Jason himself had this effect occur for him with respect to pollen, cats, etc.

Speaking of my friend & mentor Jason, I think it's worth mentioning him here. 90% of my dietary paradigm is thanks to Jason alone. He is rather undiscovered (for now) but perhaps one day he will be an online influencer in his own right.

I largely do not place my faith in carnivore/animal based influencers or their ideas. Fun fact: I never heard of liver king until the recent steroid scandal. 

Earlier in this thread I suggested that eating animals is healthy and good, and I found it amusing (but understandable!) that you responded by preemptively attacking the credibility of shawn baker and paul saladino.

All that being said, paul saladino is indeed the one public figure who espouses ideas closest to that of Jason (and by extension, me), so I do trust him more than any other public figure when it comes to diet. Still, I do not outsource all of my authority to him, which is evident from my white rice consumption (paul is against all grains).

If you are interested to hear more about Jason or his ideas, LMK!

I find it fascinating when people suggest that eating red meat "is good for elimination diet but not for longevity" this assumes that the least inflammatory food right now is somehow inflammatory... later on? I don't intuitively see why the best food NOW and the best food 10 years from now would be different things.

Jason has devoted a decade of his life to the study of nutrition, and he himself has an even more underground and well-studied mentor named Luke. Jason has been eating an animal-based, high saturated fat, low polyunsaturated fat diet for over 6 years now and he has flawless biomarkers and no hint of disease or even predisposition to disease. Jason's mentor, Luke, has been eating this way for roughly 20 years with the same results! I trust these guys because they walk the talk and they put their own skin on the line.

According to these guys, the primary driver for modern disease is excess POLYUNSATURATED fats (NOT saturated) because polyfats, and by extension linoleic acid, are especially prone to oxidation. According to Jason: "It's not the fact that LDL carries ApoB, it's the fact that it carries linoleic acid, becomes oxidized and then atherogenic/injurious." This explains both the French Paradox and Israeli Paradox. Jason recommends looking into the Minnesota Coronary Experiment and the Sydney Diet Heart Study. Also look up PMID30364556.

Again, in this moment I don't particularly care about being right or having people agree with me... 

I want to have an open discussion about this potential answer without being instantly shut out.

Ultimately you are right that time will tell. In 5, 10, 20, 50 years these competing hypothesis will play out on the battleground of life. Which is truly injurious: excess ApoB or excess LA? Medical consensus or the contrarians?

I've staked my chips on the latter because I trust my friends and mentors (who, for the record, have NOTHING to sell. They are scientists in the purest form of the word). Oh, and the immediate benefits are too good to give up

Edited December 16, 2022 by RendHeaven

[Michael569]

@RendHeaven thanks for clarifying.

I'll drop any further counter-arguments at this point, I think we are at a point where it doesn't make sense and none of us are changing our opinions ?

Glad you found a direction that works best for you, I'm genuinely happy for you as what you do is important and you need to mental clarity to do that properly.

Perhaps all I'd say is you monitor your blood lipids annually to be sure you're all good. I do the same for myself, I get my lipid panel, A1C and anthropometrics measured about once in 12-16 months so that I can take early calibration steps if something is off

Personally I seem to function best at around 85% plants with occasional fish, chicken and egg in the mix.  

For me mild bloating is not a big deal, I see that as a microbiome effect and a trade off for being able to consume high fibre diet and am not particularly concerned about it. I like pooping 3 times a day ??

[CultivateLove]

5 hours ago, Michael569 said:

I like pooping 3 times a day ??

Each to their own I guess

[RendHeaven]

11 hours ago, Michael569 said:

I'll drop any further counter-arguments at this point, I think we are at a point where it doesn't make sense and none of us are changing our opinions ?

Yeah if you don't feel like it would be productive, that's totally understandable, but just wanna let you know that personally I'm happy to hear your contentions, just to get a fuller picture, even if we don't necessarily change our minds.

Especially around that point I made about polyfats, linoleic acid, and oxidation.

11 hours ago, Michael569 said:

Perhaps all I'd say is you monitor your blood lipids annually to be sure you're all good. I do the same for myself, I get my lipid panel, A1C and anthropometrics measured about once in 12-16 months so that I can take early calibration steps if something is off

Gotcha, thanks

Edited December 16, 2022 by RendHeaven

[Cass Cassini]

No idea why religion was a part of this debate. 

 

[Carl-Richard]

Boom spike, boom crash. Sleepy sleepy time.