Is nonduality the absolute or a contingent knowledge?

[Devin]

7 minutes ago, Strannik said:

 are you pretending to be an idiot?

this is why i said you're superimposing your belief, i know you're saying you can't know, but in your next sentence you state knowns

 

21 hours ago, Strannik said:

 

However, that is not possible if the final formless ontic level is prior to awareness, in which case we can only intellectually grasp it, but never experience directly, it would be a Kantian "thing in itself" for us (only that it is not a "thing").      

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Devin

[Strannik]

6 minutes ago, Devin said:

this is why i said you're superimposing your belief, i know you're saying you can't know, but in your next sentence you state knowns

 

 

I already said hundred times that relative knowledge by making contingent concepts is possible and there is nothing wrong with it. The problem is when we form beliefs that such knowledge can be the absolute truth.  

Edited December 13, 2022 by Strannik

[Devin]

25 minutes ago, Strannik said:

I already said hundred times that relative knowledge by making contingent concepts is possible and there is nothing wrong with it. The problem is when we form beliefs that such knowledge can be the absolute truth.  

and you don't recognize you have a belief from such knowledge?

 

2 hours ago, Strannik said:

You need to practice it to experience the difference. It's the highest degree of liberation from fooling yourself. 

 But it is difficult to do it in one big leap, so it usually happens in step-by-step awakening process where "I am God-Consciousness" is just one of the steps. So, there is nothing wrong with that intermediate step, it is indeed helpful in most cases. Just don't think that it is the final destination if you are on the way to a complete liberation. But no rush, you can do it only when you are ready. 

"it's the highest degree of liberation from fooling yourself" (Absolute Truth?)

 

I think where you're stumbling is with what consciousness is, it seems you think it's your conscious mind, what you're aware of

Edited December 13, 2022 by Devin

[Gesundheit2]

19 hours ago, vladorion said:

How is that gaslighting?

It's not, and this is rather an ad hominem that many people use when they don't have any cards left.

[Strannik]

1 minute ago, Devin said:

"it's the highest degree of liberation from fooling yourself" (Absolute Truth?)

it's also contingent and pragmatic, there nothing absolute in this statement. But if you are so picky, I would rephrase it as:

"it's a relatively higher degree of liberation compared to having absolute beliefs"

[Devin]

2 hours ago, Strannik said:

it's also contingent and pragmatic, there nothing absolute in this statement. But if you are so picky, I would rephrase it as:

"it's a relatively higher degree of liberation compared to having absolute beliefs"

well there are absolutes in both those statements but, that's still not the problem, just a symptom

what you're describing, that "what if there's something else we're not experiencing", consciousness is infinity, it's not an experience, it's not a thing. Experiences, that you are not experiencing, are all within consciousness. You saying we could be illusions of aliens, that's within consciousness, if 'your' thoughts and experiences are made by aliens, that's within consciousness, actually, your thoughts and experiences being made by aliens IS within consciousness there's not even an 'if'. Infinite

Edited December 13, 2022 by Devin

[Strannik]

5 minutes ago, Devin said:

well there are absolutes in both those statements but, that's still not the problem, just a symptom

what you're describing, that "what if there's something else we're not experiencing", consciousness is infinity, it's not an experience, it's not a thing. Experiences, that you are not experiencing, are all within consciousness. You saying we could be illusions of aliens, that's within consciousness, if 'your' thoughts and experiences are made by aliens, that's within consciousness

"consciousness is infinity" can either be your actual direct experience, or your fantasy/concept. Because I seriously doubt that you can have an actual experience the actual infinity of consciousness, no matter how much DMT you take, I assume it is your fantasy. In the direct experience we cannot find any limits to consciousness, yet the experience is always finite. Impossibility of finding limits is not the same as the actual infinity.     

It was a joke about aliens. In other posts I was talking about a possibility of a level of reality beyond consciousness that is more fundamental to it. 

[Devin]

1 minute ago, Strannik said:

"consciousness is infinity" can either be your actual direct experience, or your fantasy/concept. Because I seriously doubt that you can have an actual experience the actual infinity of consciousness, no matter how much DMT you take, I assume it is your fantasy. In the direct experience we cannot find any limits to consciousness, yet the experience is always finite. Impossibility of finding limits is not the same as the actual infinity.     

It was a joke about aliens. In other posts I was talking about a possibility of a level of reality beyond consciousness that is more fundamental to it. 

shed all of your beliefs, you'll feel infinity, you don't even need dmt

[Strannik]

10 minutes ago, Devin said:

you'll feel infinity, you don't even need dmt

did you apply for the Nobel Prise for that? 

And as I said before, even if it would indeed be infinite in its own domain of consciousness, it does not mean that there could not be another level of a reality beyond its domain. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Strannik

[Devin]

just consider, that you don't understand what people even mean by consciousness, it's clear in your previous post and probably most of the other ones

[Strannik]

9 minutes ago, Devin said:

just consider, that you don't understand what people even mean by consciousness, it's clear in your previous post and probably most of the other ones

I said many times before:

"What we actually know in our direct conscious experience is only a flow of qualia/phenomena present here and now inseparable from the "isness/presence" and conscious awareness of them." We label this bare fact with the word "Consciousness".

If by consciousness you mean something else, then it is your fantasy/concept, which is just one of the phenomena included in the flow of qualia given in the direct conscious experience. The problem again is that we typically "live" in our fantasy world mistaking feelings, imaginations and ideas for reality (including your "feel of infinity"). "Me living in a material world outside myself" is one kind of fantasy world, "I am the Infinite God-Consciousness" is another kind of fantasy world, essentially no difference, the latter kind just feels a little better    

Edited December 13, 2022 by Strannik

[Devin]

9 minutes ago, Strannik said:

I said many times before:

"What we actually know in our direct conscious experience is only a flow of qualia/phenomena present here and now inseparable from the "isness/presence" and conscious awareness of them." We label this bare fact with the word "Consciousness".

If by consciousness you mean something else, then it is your fantasy/concept, which is just one of the phenomena included in the flow of qualia given in the direct conscious experience. The problem again is that we typically "live" in our fantasy world mistaking feelings, imaginations and ideas for reality (including your "feel of infinity"). "Me living in a material world outside myself" is one kind of fantasy world, "I am the Infinite God-Consciousness" is another kind of fantasy world, essentially no difference, the latter kind just feels a little better    

okay, your reasoning for this thread is 'ultimate liberation' right?

how could you be more liberated than infinity, than having no beliefs nothing to be chained by?

sincerely, i suggest you look into what consciousness is a little more

Edited December 13, 2022 by Devin

[Strannik]

2 minutes ago, Devin said:

okay, your reasoning for this thread is 'ultimate liberation' right?

how could you be more liberated than infinity, than having no beliefs nothing to be chained by?

because "infinity" is just your fantasy that you chose to believe as the "Absolute Truth", and so became chained by it

[Devin]

3 minutes ago, Strannik said:

because "infinity" is just your fantasy that you chose to believe as the "Absolute Truth", and so became chained by it

so believing finitude is possible, is more liberating?

finitude is within infinity

Edited December 13, 2022 by Devin

[Strannik]

8 minutes ago, Devin said:

so believing finitude is possible, is more liberating?

finitude is within infinity

You don't need to believe neither in infinity, nor in finitude as the absolute truth. Just let it go. You can still use these concepts pragmatically as contingent ideas (in mathematics for example), nothing wrong with that. 

Better think why do you so desperately want to hold on and cling to some "absolute truth"? Yes, it brings you certainty, psychological comfort, it's understandable, but you are trading it for freedom. But sure, if you value comfort more, you can still do it, there is nothing wrong with clinging to beliefs. It's only if you choose freedom then you might think of letting these beliefs go.  

Edited December 13, 2022 by Strannik

[Devin]

14 minutes ago, Strannik said:

You don't need to believe neither in infinity, nor in finitude as the absolute truth. Just let it go. You can still use these concepts pragmatically as contingent ideas (in mathematics for example), nothing wrong with that. 

Better think why do you so desperately want to hold on and cling to some "absolute truth"? Yes, it brings you certainty, psychological comfort, it's understandable, but you are trading it for freedom. But sure, if you value comfort more, you can still do it, there is nothing wrong with clinging to beliefs. It's only if you choose freedom then you might think of letting these beliefs go.  

there is no 'believing in infinity', realizing infinity is the lack of beliefs. When you have no beliefs, that's realizing infinity.

there is no faith, no hoping, in realizing infinity

Edited December 13, 2022 by Devin

[Strannik]

3 minutes ago, Devin said:

there is no 'believing in infinity', realizing infinity is the lack of beliefs

there is no faith, no hope, in realizing infinity

as I said, you can either directly experience the actual infinity (not "feel" or think about it, but actually experience), or have an idea about it. Because I don't believe the former is possible, you are just having the latter (fantasy/idea/feel of infinity) and mistaking it for the "realization of the Absolute Truth" after being brainwashed by Leo.

[Devin]

6 minutes ago, Strannik said:

as I said, you can either directly experience the actual infinity (not "feel" or think about it, but actually experience), or have an idea about it. Because I don't believe the former is possible,

i suggest you question that belief, sincerely. The liberation you're seeking is right in front of you

Edited December 13, 2022 by Devin

[Carl-Richard]

@Strannik I've been thinking, and I guess you could postulate an ontological category that is distinct to the most fundamental aspect of whatever "this" is, but I don't know if it makes much sense, or if it matters at all.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Nilsi]

34 minutes ago, Strannik said:

as I said, you can either directly experience the actual infinity (not "feel" or think about it, but actually experience), or have an idea about it. Because I don't believe the former is possible, you are just having the latter (fantasy/idea/feel of infinity) and mistaking it for the "realization of the Absolute Truth" after being brainwashed by Leo.

You are directly experiencing the actual infinity right now. What are you missing? Some kind of lightshow?