Why can I only perceive my own thoughts?

[kylan11]

20 hours ago, Dino D said:

nice...

but look again, you still speak about, time, differences, parents that know and experience something i Did not or what i forgot... that all indicates separation, time, and different selfs... when you say that I existed before I was born, or you, or both of us, us one, when you say it like that; isn't it just dogma... you just intellectualized that idea WITHOUT direct experience (THAT IS THE HOLLY GRAIL OF THINKING AND PROVING IN NON-DUALITY) and also without other proof... its a pure idea and dogma backed with nothing but your imagination... you just say such (spiritual forum dogmatic theory) that I heard before, but without ANY experience, or proof... it just sound nice and fits the deep non dual hole of sophisticated knowledge that in fact is dogma, based on direct experience, denying of everything else, and further making up (or coping Budha christ or whoever) thing based on the experience of the no self feeling... so you get the no self experince, but what is it, and than comes imagination and dogma that you were there before you were born and that we all are ONE, without truly ever experiencing it or me and my legs, emotions thoughts and so on

I couldn't disagree more. You are completely misunderstanding the nature and the good faith of my hypothesis. Very briefly, what I'm trying to do here is exactly the opposite: I HAVE HAD direct experiences that were paradygm shattering, more "real" and shocking than you could ever imagine, and my ego is in the (probably futile) process of trying to rationalize them into a coherent idea with some explanatory power over literally everything in existence. Think that's easy? We are fighting literally against ourselves in this attempt. 

You seem to think it's the other way around, some guy that has accepted New-agey thought as his lord and saviour and tries to justify it no matter what.

Now, one more comment. Please do not immediately reject other interpretations of what is happening here as misguided attempts to fit into a convenient little narrative. Cause I have the feeling that your posts don't really come from a place of genuine open mindedness or curiosity to get to truth, they sound more like attempts to prove to others and mostly yourself that all spirituality is a delusion (I would argue, in order to defend your own delusion). I have been there and I understand. But there IS something profound to this (Is-ness itself) that cannot be possibly be denied, only taken for granted. 

Don't just put a label of "DOGMA" all around philosophical inquiry and dismiss it. I get your frustration, like I said, many people here are guilty of the same thing. But it's like you've put this label automatically to everything spiritual, and immediately stop listening. It's like a defensive mechanism used to conceal guess what? Your own personal dogma. Of which you have ZERO proof as well. (What is your definition of proof, by the way? There's a dogma hiding there too.)

I have much more to say on this, but it's outside the scope and purpose of this thread.

Edited December 12, 2022 by kylan11

[Dino D]

On 12/12/2022 at 10:55 AM, kylan11 said:

I couldn't disagree more. You are completely misunderstanding the nature and the good faith of my hypothesis. Very briefly, what I'm trying to do here is exactly the opposite: I HAVE HAD direct experiences that were paradygm shattering, more "real" and shocking than you could ever imagine, and my ego is in the (probably futile) process of trying to rationalize them into a coherent idea with some explanatory power over literally everything in existence. Think that's easy? We are fighting literally against ourselves in this attempt. 

You seem to think it's the other way around, some guy that has accepted New-agey thought as his lord and saviour and tries to justify it no matter what.

Now, one more comment. Please do not immediately reject other interpretations of what is happening here as misguided attempts to fit into a convenient little narrative. Cause I have the feeling that your posts don't really come from a place of genuine open mindedness or curiosity to get to truth, they sound more like attempts to prove to others and mostly yourself that all spirituality is a delusion (I would argue, in order to defend your own delusion). I have been there and I understand. But there IS something profound to this (Is-ness itself) that cannot be possibly be denied, only taken for granted. 

Don't just put a label of "DOGMA" all around philosophical inquiry and dismiss it. I get your frustration, like I said, many people here are guilty of the same thing. But it's like you've put this label automatically to everything spiritual, and immediately stop listening. It's like a defensive mechanism used to conceal guess what? Your own personal dogma. Of which you have ZERO proof as well. (What is your definition of proof, by the way? There's a dogma hiding there too.)

I have much more to say on this, but it's outside the scope and purpose of this thread.

thx for the high-quality response...

maybe you also misunderstand my points, mostly because i put them in a way in which it is probable that you understand me the way that you understand me...

my radical open-mindedness has led me to believing everything witch is also false... this can go also in dark ways (where i did not go)but for example, lets just try pedophilia, heroin or whatever comes and goes...

as you said: of trying to rationalize them into a coherent idea with some explanatory power... and then happens imagination and dogma and delusion...

proof is relative, somehow you prove one thing with other things... the relation of A to B, and A to C proves A... if i sleep, other people still live... nondualist somehow say that this is not true... if you cut your arm off, you don't have your arm on your body anymore... should we now take drugs, or go into deep philosophy to discredit that proven statement about your arm that fits into basic logic, truth and common sense philosophy... and say a thing like there is no arm, no you, and if you deeply meditate you can grow it back, and all prove that that is not true are false because there are no proves... you see where this goes...

to all the so-called non dual and drug experiences I can say that they are true, and profound and that they show something about the nature of something, but what about what, we as humans dont have the capacity to know it all and to explain the deepest truth and laws of an absolute existence... so your IQ can be 140 (smart guy), but it is not even close to 9999999999999x999999999, and you complete knowledge is less then 0,0000001 of the existing knowledge on earth, not to start comparing it to the universe... so what truly can you GET from observing your experiences or trips... my experinces and openmind is so open that i can question the same critice that opend it in the first place... so I trip or listen to ,,gurus" wow wow wow, so deep, I listend again, yes, yes yes, wiat WRRRROOOOONNNNGGGG, youre just imagining or gessing or shouting arbitrary ideas that fall from your (smart) head, its not like YOU KNOW or that it can be proven in any (relative) credibile style of proving... and what I test your ideas or statements with everything (modest) that i got, with all my mind, knowledge or whatever, they fall those test, whil some other ideas or statement  they pass all the tests or critices that I can possibly try so i belive them, I say they are true or proven (with always an open mind that everything could be wrong) so if i cut my arm maybe tho new arms will grow insted if i take 8meoaya...

 

Again all those questions... why cant I feel you if we are all one, if we are all one, how that i can only feel my shit and not one more  shit of other persons... i should at least be able to feel/experience 100 or a million humans if not all of existence...

Why i dont experience anything when I sleep, im in coma, dead or before I was born?

why most gurus charge and make money, and take drugs ond somehow fuck up their lives?

Why non duality leads to expositional more searching and suffering that never ends?  you see how leo is drifting... he is not a person who got it, who is so happy peacfull, who does not search, who emits love, who makes wonders and soo on... just an everexpeding deeper never ending searcher with more and more task complexity and so on...

why does morality go down in this path, and sins get relativized...

Why does the truth can only bee attined with tricky methods (drugs, meditating and so on) and why is it not always obvious (so its a mind state attained with touching special parts of the brain)

when you see the wall, the wall is there... when you get that 2+2 is 4... it not that you tomorrow can not get or see it... but a non dual realization is an induced experience, and later you make just ideas of it without any prove or test that those ides should be capable of passing...

non dual reasoning can be applied to any experience... there is only sound, everything is sound (if you would have only that sense)... i think our brain has a basic receptor for every input... when you sort out every input and start to feel the same blank receptor than you get to the nondual experience... it can be blank or filled with incredible inputs that again show your pure awareness as it its... later you dogmatize that all is that, as you cold do with all is sight, sound or whatever...

So i Dont belive you can in any way prove to me that you and are the same  consciousness, or being or mind or the same nothing or whatever... while I belive you every word of the things you have experienced, but I dont belive you your conclusions or ideas about what they are if you can not in any way prove them to me or to most of the human understanding (if you can put it simply you don't get it-Einstein) while I or the whole human comunity can in many ways disprove all of non dual theories claims or ideas...

Again if you take aya, and say i talked to another entity... i can say that is your hallucinations or that is true, there are multiple dimensions and maybe the human brain can be modeled with drugs to directly experience it... telepathy is also posible, when mobile phones can connect, why not electromagnetic brains... so i'm open-minded...

but when you say i meditated and felt like nothing, i say I belive... then comes dogmatic reasoning... so I'm nothing ... NOOOO, thats your idea and interpretation of your experince but not your truth... btw. the ego is so relative, one kick in the brain and there is no person any more... you can experience your deletion, and get an existence crisis or bliss... who knows... I wold like to know what we truly are, where we go, where we came from, why all of this is and so on... I thought non duality was the answer for long time, but it literary does not give answers... when it gets tough it says stop asking, thinking, meditate, take drugs, there is no you, empty your brain, fuc   k asking, thinking, logic... this is the truth because I say so, and if you dont get it you're just on a low-level consciousness... it relative, all is relative... cut of your arm!!! there is no arm. Its always there, but it never even was there... so cut it of or don't.

here is more

 

those are examples of the forums i put with even more and more questioning, Leo answered and others,,, ant their answers fit the style in which i elaborated now to you... so basically they come to a dead  and get dogmatic or asking me just to stop ,,asking"

[spiritual memes]

@Dino D What you are doing is called a gish gallop. You are posting an overwhelming number of arguments all of which lack quality.

''During a Gish gallop, a debater confronts an opponent with a rapid series of many specious arguments, half-truths, misrepresentations, and outright lies in a short space of time, which makes it impossible for the opponent to refute all of them within the format of a formal debate''

anyways...

On 16/12/2022 at 10:14 PM, Dino D said:

my radical open-mindedness has led me to believing everything witch is also false... this can go also in dark ways (where i did not go)but for example, lets just try pedophilia, heroin or whatever comes and goes...

There's a difference between being open to an idea and believing and acting on it.

On 16/12/2022 at 10:14 PM, Dino D said:

if i sleep, other people still live... nondualist somehow say that this is not true...

Strawman argument. Few nondualists would say this.

as for the paragraph below that one, what the fuck? Its pretty nonsensical rambling

On 16/12/2022 at 10:14 PM, Dino D said:

.. why cant I feel you if we are all one, if we are all one, how that i can only feel my shit and not one more  shit of other persons... i should at least be able to feel/experience 100 or a million humans if not all of existence...

A whirlpool on one side of the world cannot interact with a wave on the other side of the world even though they are aspects of one ocean.

On 16/12/2022 at 10:14 PM, Dino D said:

Why i dont experience anything when I sleep, im in coma, dead or before I was born?

There's a difference between 'your' limited human experience and the you which is the entire universe. Also, you do experience stuff when you sleep and people sometimes recall past lives.

On 16/12/2022 at 10:14 PM, Dino D said:

why most gurus charge and make money, and take drugs ond somehow fuck up their lives?

Why can't a guru charge money? After all, he needs to survive and spread his teachings, all of which require money. As for drugs, most gurus dont take drugs, and even if they did, what's wrong with that? As for fucking up their lives, that's just complete bs.

On 16/12/2022 at 10:14 PM, Dino D said:

Why non duality leads to expositional more searching and suffering that never ends?  you see how leo is drifting... he is not a person who got it, who is so happy peacfull, who does not search, who emits love, who makes wonders and soo on... just an everexpeding deeper never ending searcher with more and more task complexity and so on...

1. Reality is infinitely complex

2. Leo is pretty different from most teachers

On 16/12/2022 at 10:14 PM, Dino D said:

why does morality go down in this path, and sins get relativized...

Because it's a mental construct

On 16/12/2022 at 10:14 PM, Dino D said:

Why does the truth can only bee attined with tricky methods (drugs, meditating and so on) and why is it not always obvious (so its a mind state attained with touching special parts of the brain)

Because are minds are optimized for survival, not truth. These methods remove the deception mechanisms.

On 16/12/2022 at 10:14 PM, Dino D said:

when you see the wall, the wall is there... when you get that 2+2 is 4... it not that you tomorrow can not get or see it... but a non dual realization is an induced experience, and later you make just ideas of it without any prove or test that those ides should be capable of passing...

huh? This argument is incoherent

On 16/12/2022 at 10:14 PM, Dino D said:

I thought non duality was the answer for long time, but it literary does not give answers...

Because there is no answer. You are trying to grasp nonduality with the conceptual mind which is a mistake. How do you think the conceptual mind understand things?

On 16/12/2022 at 10:14 PM, Dino D said:

So i Dont belive you can in any way prove to me that you and are the same  consciousness, or being or mind or the same nothing or whatever...

who is this 'you' and 'me' you are referring to? 'you' is a distinction that the mind makes to separate an aspect of consciousness from the rest. It's a mental construct.

As for the other arguments, I cba

[axiom]

On 09/12/2022 at 9:49 PM, kylan11 said:

why can we only perceive our own thoughts?

You’re not straining hard enough. You must really, really try until you go red in the face.

[Dino D]

12 hours ago, axiom said:

You’re not straining hard enough. You must really, really try until you go red in the face.

when you can not answer you joke...

[Dino D]

@spiritual memes thx... i agree that I did bombard with everything at once, and some arguments are weak or badly constructed...

as you could see... i posted many other forums before with just one or two arguments or questions where i also never got an answer that i can say Ok, now understand or what you say is really a true answer...

i would like to reply back to some of your answers...

A whirlpool on one side of the world cannot interact with a wave on the other side of the world even though they are aspects of one ocean... Its not one ocean not in a materialistic way, not in a conscious way... its just water (atoms or drops) pressed together so the analogy about water from one ocean can not be applied to humas... you could press 100 humans together, there are still 100 humans, or one pressed bunch of humans called ,,ocean"...

ONE is something that you can not separate without losing the essence of that one, or where it does not get party destroyed, or where it has one (conscious)  control center that can not control outside of it boundaries...  so my left hand and right hand are independent in a sense and the left does not know what the right does (but the brain can know), but they are both connected do the brain, and if i cut one off its done... all of my body has special conception to all of it, or my body mind... but it has 0 connection to your body or body-mind... I dont see and practical argument or  prove where you can say that you and me are even connected, let alone being ONE... you can say that only with dogmatic imagination... and when I say give me proof, logical arguments, rational explanations, anything ,,tangible'' you get philosophical with trick or attacking rational thinking, prove, or logic...

 

There's a difference between 'your' limited human experience and the you which is the entire universe. Also, you do experience stuff when you sleep and people sometimes recall past lives.

Ok what is the difference and how you know?

So there is human experience but humans don't exist and we are all just one and the same consciousness, but he can non experience feel or know anything besides or outside of the human capability? again why can't i feel you or a stone, or a guy on another planet?

ps. I struggle a lot with English, and thx

 

[spiritual memes]

2 hours ago, Dino D said:

A whirlpool on one side of the world cannot interact with a wave on the other side of the world even though they are aspects of one ocean... Its not one ocean not in a materialistic way, not in a conscious way... its just water (atoms or drops) pressed together so the analogy about water from one ocean can not be applied to humas... you could press 100 humans together, there are still 100 humans, or one pressed bunch of humans called ,,ocean"...

The water is just an analogy. The separations you are making are mentally constructed. What separates one thing from another? Its your mind that draws the imaginary line. If you want to talk about atoms, then according to quantum field theory all particles are excitations of their underlying field. For example, electrons are excited states of the electron field. In the same way, human minds can be considered excited states of the universal field of consciousness.

2 hours ago, Dino D said:

ONE is something that you can not separate without losing the essence of that one, or where it does not get party destroyed, or where it has one (conscious)  control center that can not control outside of it boundaries...

The separations are mind generated and not really real. 

2 hours ago, Dino D said:

so my left hand and right hand are independent in a sense and the left does not know what the right does (but the brain can know), but they are both connected do the brain, and if i cut one off its done... all of my body has special conception to all of it, or my body mind... but it has 0 connection to your body or body-mind... I dont see and practical argument or  prove where you can say that you and me are even connected, let alone being ONE...

See back to my whirlpool analogy. 

2 hours ago, Dino D said:

Ok what is the difference and how you know?

The difference is the same difference as a whirlpool and an ocean. You can know simply by being aware of your own mind and the sensation of 'you'.

2 hours ago, Dino D said:

and when I say give me proof, logical arguments, rational explanations, anything ,,tangible'' you get philosophical with trick or attacking rational thinking, prove, or logic...

Ok if you want to be logical, how do you prove materialism? How does unconscious matter give rise to subjective experience? Otherwise you are just asserting without evidence.

thx

[Yimpa]

You are the only one in the universe, my friend <3

[Dino D]

@spiritual memes I just have to continue debate politely

The separations you are making are mentally constructed. NO, the oness youre making ist a pure mental construct, never experienced, proven or with logic explained... you just belive that from your interpretations of your non dual experiences, whitc never gave you that we are all one, but you interpreted the experiences of your pure awareness like we are all one...

what us severest can be argumenta with 1000 arguments that are practical (cut of your hand, i dont feel you, you live you die, youre here youre not, youre not the stone and so on), what us connect as ONE can not be proven with anything or on any practical level, only with philosophical abstract concepts, believes and dogma... you only put dogma to me, why cant you say, we are all one i can stop the sun, or travel to mars in an instant, or feel my hand... you cant do or precipitate one thing, but you claim non dual theory that where it should be possible not to do ONE thing, but all of them 

 

The connections AS one is mind generated, because practically there is no connection...

I can not prove materialism, i dont know what we are... so you conclude -believe and imagine we are all one... i can  not prove that by far...

 

I also believe in the practical reality... i don't know know what the universe is and how it is build, i dont understand atoms or if they truly exists but I know what is practical, logic and what is the FuC n truth, and for me that is the real truth, what IS and what works, and what is possible...

so the practical truth is that we are separate, there is non one practical implication of us being ONE, not one prove, just a philosophical dogma or a mental construct, because on any level of existance or experience of truth, we can only be practically one in your mind and belief, not on this planet in any other way, because there is NOT one practical experience, evidence, or peculiar to the human race and the experience of the individual that we are one- i can access you, or anything besides my body mind, even telepathy is a connection between two body minds, even if it is between a shared filed, there are still two separate units that just share one field, that is also not them they just use it...

the only place where non duality exist and works, is the interpretation of a trip or a meditative state, so in the mind... and not on the field of this word and practical existence

[Dino D]

10 hours ago, Yimpa said:

You are the only one in the universe, my friend <3

Who are you, who is my friend? It's not me... you and I are not one, and not the same, and not connected especially not consciously...  (maybe over this forum in a communicative way, but that's obviously not what we mean...

Which mind did write : You are the only one in the universe, my friend <3 ... not my, I was not conscious of that, my brain also did not?

I can not access you, your body-mind... 

if we would have the same consciousness or if we would be IT and not US, we would be omniaware, so we are not IT... if we somehow still share the same conscious field, we still exist as that (whatever it is, let say ,,human") what is separate in that field and that(we) exists individually, even if it is connected to all other existence, it is still individual, separate but connected (what is highlighted in that same field and unconnected with another that is highlighted in another place and way, in such a way that what is highlighted or isolated from that field and other happenings, although connected in one way, that becomes essentially separate and independent and no longer speaks of the same entity, being or appearance)... lets say all electric devices can be connected to the same electrical field in one house, but that does not make all electrical devices in that house one and the same electrical devices...

when I as a human connect to the experience of consciousness, via drugs or meditation, I think we experience only the pure awareness of our mind, or at best the pure awareness of the underlining consciousness of all existence, but that does not make us all ONE, or that does not deny separation, and existence us different beings, awareness or individual consciousness that just have one wire that leads to the same field, and or other is unique... very similar to the electrical devices analogy ...

 

[spiritual memes]

13 hours ago, Dino D said:

you just belive that from your interpretations of your non dual experiences, whitc never gave you that we are all one, but you interpreted the experiences of your pure awareness like we are all one...

Straw man argument. I simply doubt the existence of separation. I only experience a unified field of conscious awareness. Separations are things my mind generates. I gave you proof in the example of quantum fields.

13 hours ago, Dino D said:

what us severest can be argumenta with 1000 arguments that are practical

And they were all disproved with a field analogy. You are still identifying with the contents of consciousness rather than the underlying consciousness itself. 

13 hours ago, Dino D said:

cut of your hand, i dont feel you, you live you die, youre here youre not, youre not the stone and so on),

You are begging the question as your arguments implicitly assume a separation between things (i.e. a circular argument). You have not yet understood the idea that 'you' and 'me' are excited states of one underlying field. You are accusing me of not using logic, yet these arguments are not logical at all.

13 hours ago, Dino D said:

why cant you say, we are all one i can stop the sun, or travel to mars in an instant, or feel my hand... you cant do or precipitate one thing, but you claim non dual theory that where it should be possible not to do ONE thing, but all of them 

Another strawman argument, I have never claimed such a thing. You are mistaking your ego mind with the universal consciousness. Your ego mind 

is a pattern within universal consciousness.

13 hours ago, Dino D said:

I also believe in the practical reality... i don't know know what the universe is and how it is build, i dont understand atoms or if they truly exists but I know what is practical, logic and what is the FuC n truth, and for me that is the real truth, what IS and what works, and what is possible...

This is the main crux of your problem and most other materialists. Conceptual separations are 'practical' but they are not real. You care more about practicality than the truth. The illusion that things are separate is useful for your survival so you take it as absolute truth not because it is actually true. Practical is not the same as true. You care more about survival than truth which is fine.

9 hours ago, Dino D said:

lets say all electric devices can be connected to the same electrical field in one house, but that does not make all electrical devices in that house one and the same electrical devices...

They would be part of the same circuit. The concept of separate devices exists in your mind. What makes devices separate? your mind does. Now extend that analogy to every object in the universe.

You accuse me of using dogma yet you posit separation as absolute truth without ever questioning it. This is literally dogma. 

There are extremely analytical, logical arguments for nonduality made by philosophers and scientists like Bernardo Kastrup and Donald Hoffman. Since we don't have access to anything besides consciousness, why assume anything else except consciousness exists?

Here is the most important question that no materialist can answer. How does unconscious matter give rise to subjective experience? The reason I abandoned materialism for nonduality was because materialism cannot even begin to answer this question.

Thank you for your politeness btw.

[Dino D]

@spiritual memes  I only experience a unified field of conscious awareness.  /// You only experience a field of conscious awareness... You're dogmatic (and never experienced, and there is not one practical implication, manifestation or prove of it) that it is unified... You're dogmatic about that there are no other fields besides others that you have not experienced... so I can say, a never saw china or a round earth, conclusion, there is only a flat hearth and there is no china... So non dualist denies anything that is outside of experience no matter what prove and argument you put it... if I did not experience it it does not exist, its all me (such standpoint, if taken for truth, can never be disproven to a human witch such standpoint to begin with (no matter if it is true or false ultimatively, but if it is false you can still never convince somebody of it he starts with such a belief)...

not yet understood the idea that 'you' and 'me' are excited states of one underlying field... OK lets pretend to accept... i think its a word game... we are material humans, or we are excited states of one underlying field... the difference is only in a theoretical definition, because practically it all says the same... because practicaly we do not have one possibility of that field that we can use (no feel or do anything besides the ,,human" body mind) or lets say the excited state... maybe we can not even exist as that field in any way (how was your existance before you were born or after you die)...

So separation is a practical truth, one field theory is only apparent and existent and accessible as theory...

 

The illusion that things are separate is useful for your survival so you take it as absolute truth not because it is actually true.  When you see trught an illusion that should make you able to ,,do" somethig... so if separation is illusion, o there is a illusionry wall I cant cross it... then i see the truh and just go trught the wall... its funny with your truth that you can not do ONE more thing, or anything that is true... the only way we exist is the separate way, jet you call that way an illussion and your TRUTH for witch you care is absolutly untouchable and does not give ONE possibility for any way of practical or any extance or doing or whatever,,, although it is real, it is not real and available at all and nothing can be "done" with it but you ,,live in it" and i live in my illusion... but when your and mine illusion stops, everything stops like before we were born (or maybe our soul goes to onother dimension but thats onother topic)...

 

 

They would be part of the same circuit. The concept of separate devices exists in your mind. What makes devices separate? your mind does. Now extend that analogy to every object in the universe.

Those are not same analogies... in a dream (rupet spira says) there is me objects, planets and so on but it is all the same mind, no space no time all me... you can do it with water also... but a fridge and Washing machine are not when they are connected to the electrical system, and they are not ONE ELECTRICAL SYstem or extension of it   ... looking if from a human and earthly perspective, those are two connected things, but a dream is one manifestation of one SOMETHING, what ever

I question everything, thats because im here and talking to you...

How does unconscious matter give rise to subjective experience? 

Here is how... how does a camera take a photo, how does a PC put output when you put input... so the PC sees, you give it info, it gets it (subjective experience) than it gives it back to you (processes it)... (and if there is no free will (free will vs determinism) the better... so matter (or whatever atoms or whatever it is)... has the ability to process information... To communicate, to play to make it... how subjective experience is possible evan if not explained fully, it can be accepted as possible and as a property of matter with which it transfers energy and processes it... when you take your eyes out there is no sight, when you take out your brain there is no experience, so its hardly to imagine that subjective experience is there from its own, and if it is why dont you experience the grass from the perspective of dirt... BUT you only do it from the bodymind...

So when a pc works, there has to be something in it that experiences the energy process and the information processing procedure... and it is not me, but if it does that so does my seperate something do it to... and even if it is one and the same field, that does not matter because it has nothing effectively useful, practical and real from that property which is then shown to be only theoretically correct, while according to every other criterion reality exists as separate and only as such in a relative sense we exist, live and function, whatever it may be, matter or field or soul... and in the way of absolute truth, which can be one and the same infinite field of consciousness, and in such a way we do not exist in any way, especially not in a practical way, that is why it is useless as a human being to go in that direction and try to exist, because as a man, we can live and exist like that only as a theoretical idea or dogma in his head, not in his reality, which brings me back to the beginning that non-duality is a dogma...

Thank you for your politeness btw. Also... I dont think you should answer anymore, we agree to disagree and I'm open that I'm wrong and humble enough to KNOW one thing for sure, I DONT KNOW what is right about it, I do not even believe in my viewpoints, and who am I to understand the most demanding questions of existence and the universe in general... I see the logic in what you talk (I listen to this now for 7-8 years) and it has something to it, but what seems to me to be more reasonable, more acceptable, more logical and more accurate is exactly what I have presented myself, so even though proof is a relative technique according to my perception, what I have stated seems more evident...

thx

[spiritual memes]

7 hours ago, Dino D said:

So non dualist denies anything that is outside of experience no matter what prove and argument you put it...

You misunderstand me. I don't deny the existence of thinks outside of my individual subjective awareness. The most reasonable thing to assume is that there is an external world outside of my awareness. I can understand this external world by using mental constructs. One mental construct is matter. However I have no access to any other category of existence other than consciousness. Therefore the most reasonable assumption is that the external world is also made of consciousness. A materialist posits a new category of existence that is ontologically separate from consciousness that then gives rise to consciousness through its behaviours. 

7 hours ago, Dino D said:

You're dogmatic (and never experienced, and there is not one practical implication, manifestation or prove of it) that it is unified...

How am I being dogmatic? Have you ever experienced anything separate from your conscious awareness?

7 hours ago, Dino D said:

The illusion that things are separate is useful for your survival so you take it as absolute truth not because it is actually true.  When you see trught an illusion that should make you able to ,,do" somethig... so if separation is illusion, o there is a illusionry wall I cant cross it... then i see the truh and just go trught the wall... its funny with your truth that you can not do ONE more thing, or anything that is true...

I have no idea what your trying to say. With my truth I can explain both consciousness and the behaviour of the external world. Unlike materialism.

7 hours ago, Dino D said:

Those are not same analogies... in a dream (rupet spira says) there is me objects, planets and so on but it is all the same mind, no space no time all me... you can do it with water also... but a fridge and Washing machine are not when they are connected to the electrical system, and they are not ONE ELECTRICAL SYstem or extension of it   ... looking if from a human and earthly perspective, those are two connected things, but a dream is one manifestation of one SOMETHING, what ever

I don't know what you are trying to say here.

7 hours ago, Dino D said:

how does a camera take a photo, how does a PC put output when you put input...

This is a false equivalency as there are no explanatory gaps in your examples. There is a difference between the neurons in my brain when i see the colour green and the experience of the colour green. When you cut open a brain, there is no colour green.

7 hours ago, Dino D said:

how subjective experience is possible evan if not explained fully, it can be accepted as possible and as a property of matter with which it transfers energy and processes it.

If you think consciousness is a fundamental property of matter then that is panspychism, not materialism.

7 hours ago, Dino D said:

when you take out your brain there is no experience

How do you know? Seems a bit dogmatic.

7 hours ago, Dino D said:

So when a pc works, there has to be something in it that experiences the energy process and the information processing procedure..

Again, this is panpsychism, not materialism. 

8 hours ago, Dino D said:

and even if it is one and the same field, that does not matter because it has nothing effectively useful, practical and real from that property which is then shown to be only theoretically correct, while according to every other criterion reality exists as separate and only as such in a relative sense we exist, live and function, whatever it may be, matter or field or soul...

You literally just admitted here that you would choose practicality over truth. This is exactly what the ego mind does. Is this not the definition of dogma? You would still believe in materialist even if it were proven that everything is one field.

8 hours ago, Dino D said:

because as a man, we can live and exist like that only as a theoretical idea or dogma in his head, not in his reality

But all separations are theoretical ideas in your head.

8 hours ago, Dino D said:

Thank you for your politeness btw. Also... I dont think you should answer anymore, we agree to disagree and I'm open that I'm wrong and humble enough to KNOW one thing for sure, I DONT KNOW what is right about it, I do not even believe in my viewpoints, and who am I to understand the most demanding questions of existence and the universe in general... I see the logic in what you talk (I listen to this now for 7-8 years) and it has something to it, but what seems to me to be more reasonable, more acceptable, more logical and more accurate is exactly what I have presented myself, so even though proof is a relative technique according to my perception, what I have stated seems more evident...

Its a shame that you don't want to debate anymore but I do agree that this debate was going nowhere.

I think the main problem is that you don't actually understand idealism and nonduality and instead attack a straw man version of it. Perhaps if you actually understood what I was trying to argue, we would have a better debate. If you want understand the idealist/nondual argument better then I would recommend the works of Bernardo Kastrup and Donald Hoffmann.

While I disagree with you and was perhaps annoyed by a lack of logic in certain arguments, I do admire the fact that you admit that you don't know everything.

Thx and have a nice day.