Why can I only perceive my own thoughts?

[kylan11]

So this question came up during my last psychedelic trip (a few months ago). I was having an intense spiritual experience, laughing like a maniac at the cosmic joke. The fact that each of us is constantly subconsciously searching for ourselves in everything except where we're supposed to, and never finding it (no shit) was so hilarious I couldn't stop.

Meanwhile, this friend of mine – we'll call him Tom – who in the previous trip had the first awakening of his life, was struggling with this question, however, and I couldn't really answer it in a way that I found straightforward and satisfying.

If we are all one, "Being" itself, and Being is Divine, Infinite awareness, why can we only perceive our own thoughts? More generally, even in profound mystical states of consciousness, we can see consensual reality dissolving along with its illusory boundaries, yet we seem to do so from "our own" point of view (POV). In that way, we are limited to one POV only, aren't we? Even if we reach Infinite states of consciousness and transcend habitual reality, that seems to only happen for that particular fragment of Being that we call "me". Through senses that seem to be bound to our body.

So if I'm Tom, and assuming Tom's consciousness (my own) really did perceive a thought that said "I can only perceive my own thoughts", why wasn't it in my direct experience? Did that thought exist at all?

Does Tom even have his own POV? If so, isn't there an "ownership" there? HIS qualia that is somehow distinct and inaccessible to me?

There seems to be a force that keeps us separated in some very fundamental sense from being One qualia all the time. But if it's possible to trascend it during an enlightened human's lifetime, in higher planes of existence, why is there no verified case of telepathy ever?

Shit, I'm sure I need to contemplate more on that. Any insight would be apprenciated. 

Edited December 9, 2022 by kylan11

[thepixelmonk]

Just because the ultimate truth is everything is one, doesn't in any way mean it's easy or accessible for your current ego / incarnation to just access another being's thoughts. If you could easily do things like that, this reality never would have felt very real or grounded at all in the first place, and your current ego / self probably never would have even formed. Like why would you keep existing as your current identity if you could just become Tom whenever you wanted, or become some alien on a distant planet whenever you wanted. Your life wouldn't even matter or be significant in any way. Your current incarnation is more significant than you're giving it credit.

[Breakingthewall]

If you listened to Tom's thoughts, they would be your thoughts, right? in fact, tom is a thought in your mind. and psychedelics another, and absolutely everything. the question of whether tom really exists, is also just a thought in your mind. only this moment exists, and outside of that there is no existence. Or better, there is not outside, it's impossible. strange right? there can't be. As soon as you start to think: but if there are millions of other beings, what happens to them? this is just another idea in your mind. it's crazy. nothing exists, only direct experience. The rest are just ideas, knowledge.

knowledge is nothing since it deals with non-existent things. of ideas without substance. understanding is everything, and is opposed to knowledge. understanding is empty, knowledge, full, but full of thoughts. unreality, illusion, nothing. Only in the void is understanding.

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[Carl-Richard]

Same answer for why you can't feel when he pinches his arm.

[Leo Gura]

You are assuming there is a Tom.

But maybe you imagined him.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Javfly33]

why would you want to go nuts?

[Cepzeu]

You will understand when you awaken to Aloneness. That's is a mindfuck which may make you severely depressed.

[kylan11]

Solipsism is the only logical conclusion to this question, but that seems to be only half of the truth (or part of the equation), because if it were the ONLY truth, by answering this way you are denying your own sovereign POV. Or you could choose to deny mine, and no matter how much I try to convince you that I am indeed another sovereign Being, your equal, I can never prove it to you, or vice versa.

So I've thought about it deeply and here's one way that I'm trying to conceptualize it. Here it goes: there's ONE physical computer with solid hardware, with infinite RAM and processing power, and on this computer, there are billions of virtual machines running simultaneously. From their own perspective, they are a real computer with real hardware, but in truth, they are but a virtual partition of this one infinitely powerful PC. Each VM can exchange information via APIs on a LAN network hosted by the PC. Metaphysical solipsism, in my view, seems akin to a VM convincing itself that it is the only VM. And this is only logical, since a virtualized machine cannot definitely prove that there are others outside of itself. The VM environment is all it has ever known. Enlightenment, in this analogy, would be a VM realizing that it is a VM connected to the "real thing" by infinite layers of virtualization and interfaces, but never being able to fully have access to the all-powerful kernel.

This would be a very basic high-level explanation that includes both panpsychism and solipsism.

Of course, that leaves the question of why this Oneness has consciously decided to create all sorts of virtual partitions of itself. As simple, unrealized fragments of It, we can only speculate. My deepest trip into the void so far has left me with an interesting theory that includes self-love and the eternal orgasmic cycle of separation and reunification, but I'm humble enough to imagine that it is nothing but a minuscule part of the reason.

I truly appreciate every comment. Thanks Leo, hopefully my silly analogy is not too distant from something profoundly true about this reality of ours.

Edited December 10, 2022 by kylan11

[Breakingthewall]

23 minutes ago, kylan11 said:

Solipsism is the only logical conclusion to this question, but that seems to be only half of the truth (or part of the equation), because if it were the ONLY truth, by answering this way you are denying your own sovereign POV. Or you could choose to deny mine, and no matter how much I try to convince you that I am indeed another sovereign Being, your equal, I can never prove it to you, or vice versa.

So I've thought about it deeply and here's one way that I'm trying to conceptualize it. Here it goes: there's ONE physical computer with solid hardware, with infinite RAM and processing power, and on this computer, there are billions of virtual machines running simultaneously. From their own perspective, they are a real computer with real hardware, but in truth, they are but a virtual partition of this one infinitely powerful PC. Each VM can exchange information via APIs on a LAN network hosted by the PC. Metaphysical solipsism, in my view, seems akin to a VM convincing itself that it is the only VM. And this is only logical, since a virtualized machine cannot definitely prove that there are others outside of itself. The VM environment is all it has ever known. Enlightenment, in this analogy, would be a VM realizing that it is a VM connected to the "real thing" by infinite layers of virtualization and interfaces, but never being able to fully have access to the all-powerful kernel.

This would be a very basic high-level explanation that includes both panpsychism and solipsism.

Of course, that leaves the question of why this Oneness has consciously decided to create all sorts of virtual partitions of itself. As simple, unrealized fragments of It, we can only speculate. My deepest trip into the void so far has left me with an interesting theory that includes self-love and the eternal orgasmic cycle of separation and reunification, but I'm humble enough to imagine that it is nothing but a minuscule part of the reason.

I truly appreciate every comment. Thanks Leo, hopefully my silly analogy is not too distant from something profoundly true about this reality of ours.

Or put another way, infinity divided by x = infinity. but this is still a concept. reality is this, now, actual, and nothing else. concepts are concepts. It does not mean that they are false, only that they are concepts. one must distinguish between reality and concept, and then between true and false concept. reality is only one. it is the present moment. and concepts, both true and false, are within reality

[kylan11]

26 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Or put another way, infinity divided by x = infinity. but this is still a concept. reality is this, now, actual, and nothing else. concepts are concepts. It does not mean that they are false, only that they are concepts. one must distinguish between reality and concept, and then between true and false concept. reality is only one. it is the present moment. and concepts, both true and false, are within reality

That is undoubtedly true, but in my view, this is only the starting point to pursue serious philosophical inquiry. In fact, I think Truth goes deeper than what Eckhart Tolle, Alan Watts, and yourself have already eloquently expressed.

Yes, reality is one, this, the present, NOW. The rest is concepts to keep me entertained. But how did this eternal NOW come about? Why? Why this way and not another way? Was this the only way I could construct a universe? To what extent am I separated or united in regards to the Absolute? Why did I decide to experience this illusion of limited egoic life? Am I conscious when I sleep? Is my girlfriend the same as me or am I imagining her? Can't she say the same?

Using reason we can go further than "Oh yea, NOW." and in my opinion, we should. While this is enough to alleviate suffering, that doesn't stop the curiosity of an intelligent Being. What else is there to do that's meaningful, after all?

Edited December 10, 2022 by kylan11

[Dino D]

I put this question here like 10 times... or what is when we are in deep sleep or coma or before we were born, why dont we feel other peoples limbs and emotions, and so on, why isnt there one person who can manipulate reality or do superhuman things, one that breaks the matrix, there is only drug trip reports about such ,,dreams" because i never saw a person on drugs and flying but that person of course can report that it flew, but it did not...

Of course, no one answers... you can get only trick answers or some phrases 100 times replied, or the old trick there are no others, oneself and so on...

you can not get a normal logical answer, because it would be: you can't perceive other people's thoughts because there are materials separate beings and have individual consciousness...

it's funny how you can get many concrete answers, but only when they fit into the nondual perspective, but when you ask the other problematic questions that dont fit into non duality  you come to a dead end, and then the answers get dogmatic, or attacking the questioner or just, all is an illusion there is no question, everything is one and so on...

you only get practical and logical answers on questions that fit into non dulal perspective, when they don't, you get what I said or answers that attack logic, rationalism or criticism, or evan the questioning, you can get stop questioning just meditate or take drugs...

 

stop questioning the non dual dogma, and blindly belive, dont test it, dont apply logic, just take drugs as many as possible

[StarStruck]

Good thing you don’t. Be careful what you wish for. 

[Breakingthewall]

30 minutes ago, kylan11 said:

That is undoubtedly true, but in my view, this is only the starting point to pursue serious philosophical inquiry. In fact, I think Truth goes deeper than what Eckhart Tolle, Alan Watts, and yourself have already eloquently expressed.

Yes, reality is one, this, the present, NOW. The rest is concepts to keep me entertained. But how did this eternal NOW come about? Why? Why this way and not another way? Was this the only way I could construct a universe? To what extent am I separated or united in regards to the Absolute? Why did I decide to experience this illusion of limited egoic life? Am I conscious when I sleep? Is my girlfriend the same as me or am I imagining her? Can't she say the same?

Using reason we can go further than "Oh yea, NOW." and in my opinion, we should. While this is enough to alleviate suffering, that doesn't stop the curiosity of an intelligent Being. What else is there to do that's meaningful, after all?

 

It is inevitable to make those mental processes, but you have to realize that these processes are within the present. if you penetrate to the bottom of the present, with psychedelics, meditation... you realize the infinite, as you say in your first post. that is the absolute, the glory, the actual reality, the potential void in which you recognize yourself. there is nothing else to know imo. if reality is infinity, anything will be equal to anything else, which means that any semblance of definition is only apparent. how, why? interesting questions. is it possible to understand them? I guess so. in the void is total understanding. but then can it be translated into mind language? I don't know, maybe not because the logical mind works in another dimension, but who knows. 

For example, an answer from another dimension would be, if a thousand minds ask: are there other minds, or only mine. that the answer is: only yours, referring to the thousand minds, and that this is the only valid answer

 

 

[Carl-Richard]

Distinguish between form and formlessness, relative and absolute, perception/cognition and consciousness, content and context.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[kylan11]

3 hours ago, Dino D said:

what is when we are in deep sleep or coma or before we were born, why dont we feel other peoples limbs and emotions, and so on

[...]

stop questioning the non dual dogma, and blindly belive, dont test it, dont apply logic, just take drugs as many as possible

There's a case to be made that before you were born, you still existed, in an absolute sense. You just didn't know it. Meaning: there was just no YOU (as in ego) to form a sense of self and other, and experience other as self. There's nobody to think back on experience if you ARE experience. At one point, this process of individualization became such that you formed your first "conscious" memory, and the process of constructing an identity started. If you think about it, you don't remember anything from the first 3-4 years of your life, so by all means (if being is memory of past), you were NOT. Yet your parents saw you speak, play, and walk around at 4 years old. The same thing can be said about sleep.

It also makes sense from a materialistic perspective because nothing cannot possibly generate something.

So I'm logically sound on the fact that my true Self is immortal and eternal. Why did I choose to be limited to my POV right now? I don't know.

Regarding your last point, yes, I agree with you. Many people on this forum are much less open-minded than one would expect from people that claim to reject dogma. But ego is a smart mofo. It always strives to create beliefs that become central to one's identity. It weaponizes and sacrifices truth for consistency through confirmation bias. Nobody can escape this process. One can only become aware of it and always be on the lookout, but never fully conquer it, because it would literally mean giving up your whole identity. Or, in other words, death.

But hey, this is a lot better than church, so...

Edited December 10, 2022 by kylan11

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Dino D said:

or what is when we are in deep sleep or coma or before we were born,

from an absolute point of view, only now exists. This means that your birth, deep sleep, and everything else, are just things that you are imagining right now. Just histories.  It's like an infinity trick to make it look like something is happening. what happens is that what seems to be happening is the same as what is happening, since a relative pov. it seems that infinity is a trick artist . but leaves clues to be discovered. But same time, if you discover something means that you always had been discovered...a mess impossible to understand. So the best option imo is to focus in the now and forget any concept and history because all of them are false by definition. The truth is the empty now

Edited December 10, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[Razard86]

20 hours ago, kylan11 said:

So this question came up during my last psychedelic trip (a few months ago). I was having an intense spiritual experience, laughing like a maniac at the cosmic joke. The fact that each of us is constantly subconsciously searching for ourselves in everything except where we're supposed to, and never finding it (no shit) was so hilarious I couldn't stop.

Meanwhile, this friend of mine – we'll call him Tom – who in the previous trip had the first awakening of his life, was struggling with this question, however, and I couldn't really answer it in a way that I found straightforward and satisfying.

If we are all one, "Being" itself, and Being is Divine, Infinite awareness, why can we only perceive our own thoughts? More generally, even in profound mystical states of consciousness, we can see consensual reality dissolving along with its illusory boundaries, yet we seem to do so from "our own" point of view (POV). In that way, we are limited to one POV only, aren't we? Even if we reach Infinite states of consciousness and transcend habitual reality, that seems to only happen for that particular fragment of Being that we call "me". Through senses that seem to be bound to our body.

So if I'm Tom, and assuming Tom's consciousness (my own) really did perceive a thought that said "I can only perceive my own thoughts", why wasn't it in my direct experience? Did that thought exist at all?

Does Tom even have his own POV? If so, isn't there an "ownership" there? HIS qualia that is somehow distinct and inaccessible to me?

There seems to be a force that keeps us separated in some very fundamental sense from being One qualia all the time. But if it's possible to trascend it during an enlightened human's lifetime, in higher planes of existence, why is there no verified case of telepathy ever?

Shit, I'm sure I need to contemplate more on that. Any insight would be apprenciated. 

There are tons of examples of people who have experienced telepathy. Look at these non spirituality,  psychedelic users. 

 

[Hojo]

@kylan11 yes you are right. The self identity is created around then usually over the thought of death or other traumatic thoughts. People become self aware because its the first existential lie they are told about reality and its the first what this isnt real moment. It creates a disassociation within God and you are born. And we become self conscious.

For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." 6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate

Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings

Edited December 10, 2022 by Hojo

[Dino D]

On 12/10/2022 at 4:08 PM, kylan11 said:

There's a case to be made that before you were born, you still existed, in an absolute sense. You just didn't know it. Meaning: there was just no YOU (as in ego) to form a sense of self and other, and experience other as self. There's nobody to think back on experience if you ARE experience. At one point, this process of individualization became such that you formed your first "conscious" memory, and the process of constructing an identity started. If you think about it, you don't remember anything from the first 3-4 years of your life, so by all means (if being is memory of past), you were NOT. Yet your parents saw you speak, play, and walk around at 4 years old. The same thing can be said about sleep.

It also makes sense from a materialistic perspective because nothing cannot possibly generate something.

So I'm logically sound on the fact that my true Self is immortal and eternal. Why did I choose to be limited to my POV right now? I don't know.

Regarding your last point, yes, I agree with you. Many people on this forum are much less open-minded than one would expect from people that claim to reject dogma. But ego is a smart mofo. It always strives to create beliefs that become central to one's identity. It weaponizes and sacrifices truth for consistency through confirmation bias. Nobody can escape this process. One can only become aware of it and always be on the lookout, but never fully conquer it, because it would literally mean giving up your whole identity. Or, in other words, death.

But hey, this is a lot better than church, so...

nice...

but look again, you still speak about, time, differences, parents that know and experience something i Did not or what i forgot... that all indicates separation, time, and different selfs... when you say that I existed before I was born, or you, or both of us, us one, when you say it like that; isn't it just dogma... you just intellectualized that idea WITHOUT direct experience (THAT IS THE HOLLY GRAIL OF THINKING AND PROVING IN NON-DUALITY) and also without other proof... its a pure idea and dogma backed with nothing but your imagination... you just say such (spiritual forum dogmatic theory) that I heard before, but without ANY experience, or proof... it just sound nice and fits the deep non dual hole of sophisticated knowledge that in fact is dogma, based on direct experience, denying of everything else, and further making up (or coping Budha christ or whoever) thing based on the experience of the no self feeling... so you get the no self experince, but what is it, and than comes imagination and dogma that you were there before you were born and that we all are ONE, without truly ever experiencing it or me and my legs, emotions thoughts and so on

[John Paul]

You can, they are saying them out loud.. if not verbally then non-verbally. You might have to “think it for them”.