How to deal with family member lost in conspiracy theories?

[Rob06]

A family member I love is completely lost in the "religious right, the deep state must be dismantled, Trump is our savior (even though we don't live in the US), Putin is a good guy, climate change is caused by the deep state, and Jesus will return soon" conspiratorial worldview (is there a short name for this narrative, lol?). Like with many people, he got a lot more radical in his views since the pandemic started in 2020.

He's a sweet guy with a heart of gold, but just totally lost in this whole narrative. He thinks he is part of a small but growing group of people who are awake, and who really know what's going on in the world. 

I would like to help him get out of this rabbit hole, so he can start to focus on real personal growth for the last 10 to 15 years of his life, to really actualize his spiritual beliefs (he does at the core belief that the universe is all love), but it is hard to really get to him.

A while ago I shared a Daniel Schmachtenberger video with him, trying to point out the difference in nuance, complexity, and systemic thinking skills, compared to the videos he usually shares with me. He liked the video but said that Schmachtenberger doesn't go deep enough, meaning, he doesn't blame the deep state for stuff and doesn't believe Jesus will come peeking around the corner again soon... 

Besides all of this, he is starting to show early symptoms of dementia, making me think that I should just drop my mission to get him out of the rabbit hole, leaving him in his delusions, and just taking care of him the best I can. On the other side, what I want to develop in myself is to communicate powerfully with people who are either at a lower stage of cognitive development or lost in these kinds of conspiracy narratives (which overlap). The "meeting people where they are at" type of deal.

Love to hear your thoughts on this.

[Roy]

If I was you I'd give it my best shot, but don't keep banging your head on the wall for years on end if he doesn't come through. Remember it's not your job to "fix" him. You gotta live your own life too. Sometimes the best thing to do is lead by example, and maybe the sheep will notice you and break out of their spell.

[zurew]

I would say to let it go, because in most of the cases it doesn't worth the time and the emotional effort you need to put into it (assuming you can move their position even a slight bit). There is just way too much stuff that you would need to debunk one by one and all of those stuff is probably connected in his head. If the person you are talking about didn't rationalize his way to arrive at his worldview and at his conclusions, then there is almost no way you can make him drop that position with rational arguments. The problem is that, he probably has 100 different defense mechanisms (like for instance anything that goes against my narrative probably comes from the devil and from the deep state and stuff like that) and you probably won't be able to cut through it.

But, If you really want to try it, then start by asking how confident he is in his deep state narrative in a 1-10 scale? After you get your answer to that, you should ask him,  if there is anything that could change his position about the deep state narrative, and if there is something, what is it? Then you can start to build from there, and you can do this process with all of his beliefs.

You can also try to take his logic and show that his logic is limited and that it can lead to absurd conclusions if it is used on a different ground. Like for example if the ground is being a satanist, then the same logic could be used and that worldview could be defended the same way as a fundamentalist christian worldview (by demonizing everything that goes against it). ---> basically you need to show him how limited his logic is, and that might shake his rock bottom beliefs (But you will need to provide many examples, and that will take a lot of time to construct those examples).

The most important question 'Is there anything that could change your opinion or stance on this particular matter' , because this can reveal if you will waste your time or not.

Edited December 8, 2022 by zurew

[Leo Gura]

That's gonna be hard.

Teaching him Spiral Dynamics or stages of ego development might be a good intervention point.

But ultimately you gotta teach him epistemology. He needs to start to see how his mind is inventing narratives and worldviews, and how to distinguish belief and ideology from direct experience and contemplative insights.

Edited December 8, 2022 by Leo Gura

[mmKay]

I don't think there is anything to do. It may be sad for a while but I would say GTFO and keep a healthy distance.

Both of my parents are neck deep in conspiracy theories and I still live with them. 
I'm not the best debater but IMO nothing can be done to change their minds.

At the very core it's their defense mechanism against turning inwards and seeing their victim mentallity and scapegoating so they don't have to feel bad for not taking responsability for their lives. Also it's the way they make sense of the world. And it makes them feel special for knowing things " normies " don't know . That's the whole appeal of their conspiracy theories.

My best arguments are brushed off as " these youngsters just don't understand ". It's been years since i've tried to change their mind on something.

 

I want to say that there seems to be a point of no return. Once your mind is rotten, no ammount of "cleaning up"  can help.

Epistemology must be taught from a young age or certain types of minds will be doomed.

It's not the end of the world. Deliberately doing personal development like we are is not for everyone. They can still enjoy life in their own way.

PD: I remember my philosophy teacher arguing with my class at school that the moonlanding was fake and we all felt so stupid for not knowing it . Lol. That's one way you fall into the rabbithole.

Edited December 8, 2022 by mmKay

[LordFall]

6 hours ago, Rob06 said:

Besides all of this, he is starting to show early symptoms of dementia, making me think that I should just drop my mission to get him out of the rabbit hole, leaving him in his delusions, and just taking care of him the best I can. On the other side, what I want to develop in myself is to communicate powerfully with people who are either at a lower stage of cognitive development or lost in these kinds of conspiracy narratives (which overlap). The "meeting people where they are at" type of deal.

Love to hear your thoughts on this.

I think that's the answer a lot of times. Unless people are willing and in a life position where they can afford to invest a lot of time/mental energy into self-development then it's not worth it. 

Breaking your paradigms is actually an incredibly painful experience and if you don't have the increased life potential as a reward for it; I don't think it's worth it. 

IMO leave the old guy to his theories; they're probably bringing him a great deal of comfort. The only truth you're gonna enlighten him to is that there never were any conspiracies and if he had known this sooner he could've empowered himself greatly and lived a much better life but now his mind is too broken to do anything about it. 

[StarStruck]

Pray for them and ask god for mercy. You can’t help such people. Give them compassion and understanding and hope for the best.

Their LOC is too low for them to understand ego development modes: they need some LOC400 for that.  It will frustrate them and you will be seen as a try hard. 

Edited December 8, 2022 by StarStruck

[mr_engineer]

@Rob06 I mean, it's not all negative. He does believe that Jesus will return soon. Way more hopeful than believing that climate-change will destroy the planet. 

He's fine. If I were you, I'd look to be more positive and optimistic in my own worldview, learn something from him. 

About the Trump stuff, Trump is just one man. I'd suggest you don't give one man so much power that he can polarize you to this degree. 

[Eyowey]

He's never going to believe any mainstream narratives so tell him that believing alternative narratives is equally stupid.

[LordFall]

@StarStruck What is LOC? 

[StarStruck]

7 minutes ago, LordFall said:

@StarStruck What is LOC? 

Level of consciousness (David Hawkins)

[Consept]

There's a book called 'escaping the rabbit hole' by Mick West. Specifically on thr subject of how to talk to a loved one about these conspiracies, it's free on audible if you have sub 

[Rob06]

On 8-12-2022 at 8:57 AM, Roy said:

If I was you I'd give it my best shot, but don't keep banging your head on the wall for years on end if he doesn't come through. Remember it's not your job to "fix" him. You gotta live your own life too. Sometimes the best thing to do is lead by example, and maybe the sheep will notice you and break out of their spell.

Good one, thanks. One thing I notice that always works is when I genuinely become interested in what he has to say. This kind of melts the wall between our opposing worldviews. It makes him more receptive.

23 hours ago, zurew said:

 

The most important question 'Is there anything that could change your opinion or stance on this particular matter' , because this can reveal if you will waste your time or not.

The first 100 times his answer would probably "no"  . I also tried to explain to him that thinking in conspiracies is a certain mode of thinking about situations, but that it is just one of many perspectives one can take. 

23 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That's gonna be hard.

Teaching him Spiral Dynamics or stages of ego development might be a good intervention point.

But ultimately you gotta teach him epistemology. He needs to start to see how his mind is inventing narratives and worldviews, and how to distinguish belief and ideology from direct experience and contemplative insights.

Yeah, I've been thinking about teaching him SD or the ego development stages. 

Partially because of seeing his delusions, I got much more aware of the importance of a solid epistemological foundation, I'm integrating that in myself more and more. I've already tried explaining to him that his mind has a much bigger role to play in creating his worldview than he realizes. 

 

22 hours ago, mmKay said:

I don't think there is anything to do. It may be sad for a while but I would say GTFO and keep a healthy distance.

I don't really feel the need to keep a distance. All and all he's a good guy. The rest of what you said is spot on, thank you for sharing.

 

18 hours ago, LordFall said:

I think that's the answer a lot of times. Unless people are willing and in a life position where they can afford to invest a lot of time/mental energy into self-development then it's not worth it. 

Breaking your paradigms is actually an incredibly painful experience and if you don't have the increased life potential as a reward for it; I don't think it's worth it. 

IMO leave the old guy to his theories; they're probably bringing him a great deal of comfort. The only truth you're gonna enlighten him to is that there never were any conspiracies and if he had known this sooner he could've empowered himself greatly and lived a much better life but now his mind is too broken to do anything about it. 

Yeah agreed. On the one hand I think I should just leave it. On the other hand, he is retired and has nothing better to do, so it would be so cool for him to break out of his worldview delusions. Maybe not even transcending his ego, but just getting better at making sense of the world, and maybe working through some emotional trauma that I know he has from his childhood.

 

17 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Their LOC is too low for them to understand ego development modes: they need some LOC400 for that.  It will frustrate them and you will be seen as a try hard. 

Probably, yes.

 

17 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

@Rob06 I mean, it's not all negative. He does believe that Jesus will return soon. Way more hopeful than believing that climate-change will destroy the planet. 

 I hope he brings Noah and his ark 

16 hours ago, Eyowey said:

He's never going to believe any mainstream narratives so tell him that believing alternative narratives is equally stupid.

Yes, that's one of the locks that is in place, very hard to break open. 

 

15 hours ago, Consept said:

There's a book called 'escaping the rabbit hole' by Mick West. Specifically on thr subject of how to talk to a loved one about these conspiracies, it's free on audible if you have sub 

Thank you, I'll check it out.

[mr_engineer]

1 hour ago, Rob06 said:

 I hope he brings Noah and his ark

What's actually being meant, is that there will be a return of Christ-consciousness. Which is the consciousness of free will. Which means, that people will get out of the consciousness of victim-mentality and enslavement and choose freedom and conscious creation of the world they want. People will stop submitting to authority and their whims and stand up for themselves in the face of oppression. 

[Rob06]

59 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

What's actually being meant, is that there will be a return of Christ-consciousness. Which is the consciousness of free will. Which means, that people will get out of the consciousness of victim-mentality and enslavement and choose freedom and conscious creation of the world they want. People will stop submitting to authority and their whims and stand up for themselves in the face of oppression. 

I know, that's what he believes as well, and there's nothing necessarily wrong with that believe. It's basically a more mythical traditional stage blue way of saying "ego development is a thing."

 

For people who find it interesting: I'm going through a couple of books right now to understand more about the Trump phenomenon and with that many important topics:

• The Cult of Trump: https://www.amazon.com/Cult-Trump-Leading-Explains-President/dp/1982127333
• Trump and a Post-Truth World by Ken Wilber: https://www.amazon.com/Trump-Post-Truth-World-Ken-Wilber/dp/1611805619/ref=sr_1_1?crid=31E89W1RK3ALR&keywords=trump+and+the+post&qid=1670582043&s=books&sprefix=trump+and+the+post%2Cstripbooks-intl-ship%2C130&sr=1-1

 

[Consept]

3 hours ago, Rob06 said:

I know, that's what he believes as well, and there's nothing necessarily wrong with that believe. It's basically a more mythical traditional stage blue way of saying "ego development is a thing."

 

For people who find it interesting: I'm going through a couple of books right now to understand more about the Trump phenomenon and with that many important topics:

• The Cult of Trump: https://www.amazon.com/Cult-Trump-Leading-Explains-President/dp/1982127333
• Trump and a Post-Truth World by Ken Wilber: https://www.amazon.com/Trump-Post-Truth-World-Ken-Wilber/dp/1611805619/ref=sr_1_1?crid=31E89W1RK3ALR&keywords=trump+and+the+post&qid=1670582043&s=books&sprefix=trump+and+the+post%2Cstripbooks-intl-ship%2C130&sr=1-1

 

Ive actually got an Auntie who believes that Trump is the second coming of a biblical figure and there has been a prophecy that he will rid the world of evil or something. Shes a devout catholic but i think here main issue is the abortion thing, so she will support whoever she feels is anti-abortion and buy into any ideology that explains why trump in this case is great. The funny thing is Trump probably doesnt even care about abortion. But i will check out the books you suggested