Indonesia Bans Premarital Sex

[thepixelmonk]

I'm not familiar with indonesia or its culture at all but holy shit this is extreme.

[JuliusCaesar]

2 hours ago, something_else said:

People who remain virgins until marriage are likely also religious and part of cultures who will force you to stay married whether or not you are happy and satisfied with each other.

Relationship satisfaction, sexual quality, and communication have all been rated higher in such couples as opposed to those who didn't wait. To chalk all of that up to correlation would be illogical. 

 

2 hours ago, something_else said:

It doesn't mean they have a better relationship, nor that they are better parents. People who remain virgins until marriage are likely also religious and part of cultures who will force you to stay married whether or not you are happy and satisfied with each other.

Unhappy couples who are forced to stay together do not make good parents.

That such religious cultural pressures can and do cause suffering in some situations for some individuals is certain. What's relevant is the result of cost benefit analysis to figure out whether the downside outweigh the benefits or vice versa.

1 hour ago, LordFall said:

There is also the point that it's actually irrelevant if it's better or not, you are entitled to autonomy and to make your own decisions. I can't barge into your house and stop you from drinking a beer even if maybe hypothetically it'd be better if you didn't. 

Sure, here in the US it works that way. But Indonesia is not America, the people there speak a very different language and fundamentally look on reality with a completely different set of eyes than you and I. And who is to say which set of social mores is the correct one?

 

[something_else]

12 minutes ago, JuliusCaesar said:

Relationship satisfaction, sexual quality, and communication have all been rated higher in such couples as opposed to those who didn't wait. To chalk all of that up to correlation would be illogical.

Not that I don’t believe you, but this is something I would ask for links for. Stuff like this is notoriously hard to prove in studies.

One unavoidable issue is that people who were virgins until marriage don’t have many reference points for satisfaction, sexual quality and communication in relationships. Most people in my experience thought their first relationship was great while they were in it, but now they would look back on it and realise how toxic/shitty it was because they have more reference points.

But if someone were to survey you while you were in that relationship you’d probably rate it pretty highly.

Quote

That such religious cultural pressures can and do cause suffering in some situations for some individuals is certain. What's relevant is the result of cost benefit analysis to figure out whether the downside outweigh the benefits or vice versa.

Such a cost benefit analysis is essentially impossible because it would be far too general, and would be so susceptible to bias that there would be no point in doing it in the first place

For some people waiting until marriage is probably the right thing for them, for others it is definitely not, so really the only fair option is to give people the choice.

Edited December 8, 2022 by something_else

[Peter-Andre]

18 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Peter-Andre

   Actually Indonesia is one of few countries, regarding it's geographically location, hosts a diverse range of tribes and cultures that contain ALL the Spiral Dynamics stages, from the native tribes that live in 3,000 plus islands, to Singapore, and every region in between, like Jakarta, Bandung, Sunatra, and many other places. Similarly to India, but very tropical and way more exotic plants and animals. Indonesia being mostly conservative minded despite the SD stages is not surprising given tbe history it has, and increases in population. Also, Indonesia has a mixture of religions like Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, and depending on where you go, you'll find more or less.

@Danioover9000 Interesting! Never realized just how diverse Indonesia was. That's pretty cool. But it's still a shame that their government is so conservative then.

[LSD-Rumi]

Premarital sex is punished in my country by 3 years of prison but of course you have to be caught fucking in the first place. A lot of people have sex without problems. It is just something to please the conservative people. But ironically, there is no law against gay sex, lol. Unless it is punished by other laws to protect "values". 

Also, a lot of people used to kill their daughters if they praticipate in fornication. They say they retrieve their honor and wash thier shame. 

Edited December 8, 2022 by LSD-Rumi

[JuliusCaesar]

2 hours ago, something_else said:

Not that I don’t believe you, but this is something I would ask for links for. Stuff like this is notoriously hard to prove in studies.

https://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/news/20101227/theres-benefits-in-delaying-sex-until-marriage

 

https://news.byu.edu/news/good-things-come-couples-who-wait#:~:text=A%20statistical%20analysis%20showed%20the%20following%20benefits%20enjoyed,-%20Relationship%20satisfaction%20was%20rated%2020%20percent%20higher

 

2 hours ago, something_else said:

Most people in my experience thought their first relationship was great while they were in it, but now they would look back on it and realise how toxic/shitty it was because they have more reference points.

Has it not occurred to that might be part of why premarital sexual relationships seem to be less salubrious? 

 

2 hours ago, something_else said:

But if someone were to survey you while you were in that relationship you’d probably rate it pretty highly.

If I take wine from the same bottle into two glasses. And tell people that one came from a bottle costing $1000, and the other came from the bottle costing $20, there will be a greater dopaminergic response to the supposedly more expensive wine in the same subject. 

 

The point is the greater pleasure is real irrespective of how that pleasure sausage was made. Therefore, I find that you're making the opposite point better than the position you intend to defend/promote.

 

2 hours ago, something_else said:

Such a cost benefit analysis is essentially impossible because it would be far too general, and would be so susceptible to bias that there would be no point in doing it in the first place

Well, the bias isn't so much a problem. Provided the biases of the researchers is toward truth and objective empiricism. Also, everyone is always biased in some capacity.

 

Naturally, another dimension to bias would be in moral philosophy. But that isn't so much a problem, as it would likely be best to do what's most beneficial for the majority of people. 

 

Also, by conducting studies in multiple verticals so as to cover as many bases as possible the generality doesn't present much of a problem. This has already been done at least to some extent.

 

 

[something_else]

Quote

https://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/news/20101227/theres-benefits-in-delaying-sex-until-marriage

The study has the issues you would expect. It claims to control for religion but something like 85% of the participants were religious which makes that pretty dubious.

Also, only 16% of participants waited until marriage. Those aren't great numbers. And there's a good chance it was less than that and some were lying too. I bet you at least half of those did other sexual stuff but just postponed actual sex until marriage, notice they use the word intercourse. That fucks up the numbers even more.

Self-reported studies are also always a bit dodgy, especially for topics like sex, which have a component of shame and guilt.

You also have the issue that actually measuring relationship and sexual satisfaction objectively is really fucking difficult to begin with.

It also doesn't address the fact that people who's first sexual relationship is marriage have no reference points for what a good relationship, good sex and good communication look like, which means their answers to a survey are going to be skewed.

You also can't conclude from this study that it's the right decision for everyone and it should be legally enforced. Just because there is a statistical indication that couples who wait until marriage to have sex have better relationships, doesn't mean that everyone who waits until marriage to have sex will have a better relationship and that we should enforce this legally.

The best case conclusion you could draw is that it is the right decision for some people and that there is something worth investigating more here.

8 hours ago, JuliusCaesar said:

Has it not occurred to that might be part of why premarital sexual relationships seem to be less salubrious? 

I don't really follow your point here. Your point essentially reads as "most people's first relationship is shitty and they don't realise it, which is why premarital sexual relationships are less salubrious"

Quote

If I take wine from the same bottle into two glasses. And tell people that one came from a bottle costing $1000, and the other came from the bottle costing $20, there will be a greater dopaminergic response to the supposedly more expensive wine in the same subject. 

The point is the greater pleasure is real irrespective of how that pleasure sausage was made. Therefore, I find that you're making the opposite point better than the position you intend to defend/promote.

I struggle to follow this point as well, could you expand more on what you mean? I don't see how this relates to relationships, really.

9 hours ago, JuliusCaesar said:

Also, by conducting studies in multiple verticals so as to cover as many bases as possible the generality doesn't present much of a problem. This has already been done at least to some extent.

One problem with Western science is that it kind of tries to be a one-size-fits all solution. It views all humans as the same, when that is just not the case. The above study is a good example. It hints at the idea that everyone would be happier if they waited longer to have sex because it assumes all people are the same.

When really all it showed is that at best a small percentage of people were maybe happier. That doesn't mean everyone would be. That's what I meant by too general. It's a very common issue with psych studies that is essentially a fundamental flaw of the Western scientific method.

[Leo Gura]

The problem with such laws is that they are as pointless a banning alcohol or weed. People will not obey them because it just completely goes against human nature. You're basically criminalizing half the population.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Tyler Robinson]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The problem with such laws is that they are as pointless a banning alcohol or weed. People will not obey them because it just completely goes against human nature. You're basically criminalizing half the population.

People obey them and it leads to terrible sexual repression - thus a very dissatisfied population. 

[Mohammad]

Premarital sex is also forbidden in Iran. But boy o boy, you can pick up basically every night if you want to. You just have to not have sex in public

 

[Michael569]

Once they see the GDP cut year by year due to decline in tourism, they might reconsider ?

Edited December 9, 2022 by Michael569

[Danioover9000]

@Sucuk Ekmek

On 2022-12-08 at 11:50 AM, Sucuk Ekmek said:

Yeah, remnants of it still do but I think more or less we are all living in Anywhere City, USA.  

 

I am trying to be realistic.

 

I also guess here and there, for me Trump has legimate reasons too. But concerning Indonesia now that sounds fishy. I approve no premartial sex but enforcing it is another thing. 

 

Yeah, maybe they don't want new products to tinker with. It's all speculation, a question of good will or bad will. See I am very Blue concerning good or bad will. 

   No, that's an assumption you are making that the average person mostly lives in cities. Parts of the world population also live in villages, towns, rural places. We are definitely not living anywhere near the USA, maybe you are, but not me, nor some of the people I know live ANYWHERE in the USA. You're assuming all of mankind lives in cities and the USA, which is false.

   Yes, you say you are being realistic, but where is that realism coming from? USA bias? The western hemisphere bias? English bias? See, based on your stage of development, cognitive and moral development, personality type, ego development, states of consciousness and emotions, life experiences and other lines of development in your other areas of life, your worldview belief system and cultural upbringing, your mind is largely shaped by those factors and many more. What it seems to me is your mind has a liberal leaning bias and doesn't like an idea of enforcing no pre marital sex in Indonesia. What if, if you are genuinely interested in discovering why, that you find out something. For example, in India there's a large problem with rape culture, so, in the eyes of those conservative minded, enforcing a rule or law to encourage marriage before sex forces some of their male population to develop social intelligence, to behave and conform to their social standards in order to discourage rape and other sexual deviances that would put a tribe or a small village at greater risk of not surviving.

   Your 'approval' of whether Indonesia should or shouldn't enforce no premarital sex, is largely your bias and your cultural bias speaking. The question is do you understand that, and why not?

   I may have worded myself inaccurately. Yes, I don't know the entire situation as a whole, but I lived in Indonesia for a short time, and through my life experiences understood their way of thinking and dong things, so to me it's less speculation and more understanding from me, but it seems to me what you and the OP are coming from, is way more speculation than I am. 

[Danioover9000]

@LordFall

22 hours ago, LordFall said:

@Danioover9000 Doubt there's a legitimate reason for it, usually, these ideologies are conscious enough to be based on rationality; it's' generally just superstition. 

I wonder if this could lead Bali to be a bit more sovereign politically as they're generally much more liberal than mainland Indonesia AFAIK. 

I think perhaps some of it has to do with sexpats/sex tourism, I doubt that the local men are generally fond of this concept. It's interesting how the law is being written though, someone related to you has to report you for it to be considered a crime. So if tourists fuck it's fine and if you fuck a local whose family approves of it it's also fine. It hinders LGBTQ relationships too, as long as their family are disapproving of it.

It's like community policing which I don't know if it's good or bad.

   Is it all generally superstition? All BS? Or is there some wisdom in enforcing no premarital sex? Could there be some function that traditional values serve for the greater collective?

   It could be, but maybe it has to do with preventing rape culture from spreading? Maybe they're trying to reward socially acceptable behavior? I agree it sucks for the LGBTQ communities, but unfortunately the largest chunks of human history has been  native tribes, Dynasties, imperial empires, civilizations expanding, and fighting and fending off threats to it's survival, which always in this scales of conflict emerge some cultures more superior than other cultures, which then dictates and enforces it's own survival standards onto it's own population, so, through this iterative process and trial and error it found that heterosexuality, for the majority of the time, proved more successful for it's survival than any other type of sexual orientation as those don't reproduce it's own populations. Adding to that limited resources of food and land and labor, it fuels the need to explore and conquer lands and assimilate other peoples into it's own culture.

   Community policing might be a better form of policing in the distant future, but I think it's a bit too advanced compared to state established policing, for now. May change overtime depending on the SD level of the population.

[Danioover9000]

@JuliusCaesar

17 hours ago, JuliusCaesar said:

Well said, foreign countries in general have a tendency not to conform to the expectations of Americans. Especially the ones that don't speak English. English speaking countries like the Canada and England are so similar to us culturally that you usually won't be too surprised by it. Of course, there can even be room for faux pawing and awkwardness in exchanges between for instance between Brits and Americans. 

   Yes, I tend to see this problem myself. I sometimes think that the ideal situation, is to vacate to that foreign country and see for yourself, but I do recognize that it's not always available to do, so here we are discussing.l

[DocWatts]

I wonder how much of this may be motivated by nationalist fears of declining birth rates. 

[Sucuk Ekmek]

23 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Sucuk Ekmek

   No, that's an assumption you are making that the average person mostly lives in cities. Parts of the world population also live in villages, towns, rural places. We are definitely not living anywhere near the USA, maybe you are, but not me, nor some of the people I know live ANYWHERE in the USA. You're assuming all of mankind lives in cities and the USA, which is false.

 

My assumption is this:  Let's say I am living in a village in Africa and  I am using whatsapp on daily basis for my broad survival purposes. What happens is I am using a specific art, whose is not belong to me, i.e. I have no ownership of it. Those who have the ownership are the masters, and their art is not tied to whatsapp but rather on human, because  like everyone  they  have their own survival agendas, in order to push these agendas there is only one way out and it's all about the knowing of the future. In our current  epoch or paradigm whatever you call it, if you want to profit (push your agenda) there is one way out and it is how you shape  your product or rather human , so they will respond accordingly because you need to know future. (I think this is why Leo accused for forming a cult, I don't think that was coinsident). Uncertainty is the last thing you'll ever want. You and me are not living in USA, but at the same time we do. USA is a multipurpose model about how the things get done. It's not an area of land but an area of mind, to some extend actualized is USA. 

On 09.12.2022 at 4:32 PM, Danioover9000 said:

@Sucuk Ekmek

   

   Yes, you say you are being realistic, but where is that realism coming from? USA bias? The western hemisphere bias? English bias? See, based on your stage of development, cognitive and moral development, personality type, ego development, states of consciousness and emotions, life experiences and other lines of development in your other areas of life, your worldview belief system and cultural upbringing, your mind is largely shaped by those factors and many more.

 I would say my bias is a particularly dangerous one. It's wellbeing bias.

On 09.12.2022 at 4:32 PM, Danioover9000 said:

@Sucuk Ekmek

   What it seems to me is your mind has a liberal leaning bias and doesn't like an idea of enforcing no pre marital sex in Indonesia. What if, if you are genuinely interested in discovering why, that you find out something.

Yeah, I don't like that idea and there is more, I think no parrent should be able to distinguish his&her children, let all be his or her. But if this is not possible for now so let's look for alternatives and 2nd best option. I don't know if this is liberal or something but sounds good and I am interested with this stuff.

 

On 09.12.2022 at 4:32 PM, Danioover9000 said:

@Sucuk Ekmek

    For example, in India there's a large problem with rape culture, so, in the eyes of those conservative minded, enforcing a rule or law to encourage marriage before sex forces some of their male population to develop social intelligence, to behave and conform to their social standards in order to discourage rape and other sexual deviances that would put a tribe or a small village at greater risk of not surviving.

 

Sounds good. This is what they autonomously do. From my bias this is their art and they are the masters of it.

 

On 09.12.2022 at 4:32 PM, Danioover9000 said:

@Sucuk Ekmek

 

   Your 'approval' of whether Indonesia should or shouldn't enforce no premarital sex, is largely your bias and your cultural bias speaking. The question is do you understand that, and why not?

 

Of course mine,  It would be a dull place without variety of biases.

 

On 09.12.2022 at 4:32 PM, Danioover9000 said:

@Sucuk Ekmek

     I may have worded myself inaccurately. Yes, I don't know the entire situation as a whole, but I lived in Indonesia for a short time, and through my life experiences understood their way of thinking and dong things, so to me it's less speculation and more understanding from me, but it seems to me what you and the OP are coming from, is way more speculation than I am. 

I agree, we are not the direct actors for this matter.In a sense here we are acting like little USA's, about how to things get done. From my bias ones with more understanding should exposure the change. But who are the ones that knows? Again this coming from my bias, we lack serious ground for epistemology.

Sorry for my english got little rusty. Peace! 

[Razard86]

On 12/8/2022 at 3:16 PM, JuliusCaesar said:

Studies show that couples who wait until marriage to lose their virginity tend to remain married longer. Which obviously indicates that such couples are likely to have a better relationship. Which makes them better more loving parents, which of course makes for a stronger society as a whole.

 

 

Studies show only what they test for. What that study you mentioned doesn't show, is how these cultures also cause there to be shame around sex. It also as a result increases judgment surrounding things like sex, and sexual preference. As a result the same issues that happened in America through trying to control sex, will eventually happen to Indonesia. 

You cannot control sexual activity among humans, no matter how hard you try. It just going to create a criminal underworld the same with drugs and other banned things. 

[JuliusCaesar]

6 hours ago, Razard86 said:

Studies show only what they test for. What that study you mentioned doesn't show, is how these cultures also cause there to be shame around sex. It also as a result increases judgment surrounding things like sex, and sexual preference. As a result the same issues that happened in America through trying to control sex, will eventually happen to Indonesia. 

The only fault in this, is the assumption that sexual repression is somehow inherently evil. Certainly, there is some deleterious impact with such a thing. It's however equally certain that there are benefits which arise from the same.

 

6 hours ago, Razard86 said:

You cannot control sexual activity among humans, no matter how hard you try. It just going to create a criminal underworld the same with drugs and other banned things. 

What? You're thinking there's going to be some kind of secret place people go to fuck or something? lol. People who want to have sex with one another will just do it anyway. I fail to see how that's a bad thing, or what point you're even trying to make with this.

[Tyler Robinson]

8 hours ago, Razard86 said:

how these cultures also cause there to be shame around sex.

Yup these cultures lead to terrible shaming around sex that has lethal consequences 

 

 

[Danioover9000]

   Ultimately it comes to this:

   Are you for or against premarital sex, in your own country? Yes or no, and why?

   Are you for or against premarital sex, in a foreign country? Yes, or no, and why?

   The final, most important question:

    Why are you projecting onto Indonesia's decision, when you yourself have never set foot there at all, and lived inside the USA bubble or some other western/eastern culture in another country? Why is it a big deal to you, when you're not in it?