Understanding The Conservative Mind

[Hardkill]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Except we do see exactly that. It's just that you're not appreciating the relativity of the situation.

As I said, the conservatives in American are progressives relative to the Taliban. And that is because America is much more economically developed. If America had the development level of Afghanistan, Mitch McConnell would be passing laws prohibiting women from wearing skirts, and half the country would support it.

So, then why have the majority of rich white people in America still voted conservative/Republican most of the time? 

Is that because of their greed?

Edited December 5, 2022 by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

48 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Even though he was socially liberal, he was actually fiscally conservative, for the most part. 

In fact, Carter was arguably the very first neoliberal Democratic president, or for that matter, the very first neoliberal President in the US. He supported and signed legislation that deregulated airlines, deregulated the trucking industry, and some other industries. He also wasn't for any kind of universal healthcare law because he thought that it would cost too much. All of his economic proposals entailed limited government spending as he was more concerned about reducing inflation and balancing the budget, especially considering the fact that he unfortunately had to deal with the terrible inflation crisis that occurred during his presidency. Guaranteed minimum income and federal jobs guarantee were perhaps the only two economically liberal ideas that he ever proposed.

Nobody votes based on that. People vote based on vibe. Carter's vibe was too soft in a Cold War era.

24 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

So, then why have the majority of rich white people in America still voted conservative/Republican most of the time? 

Is that because of their greed?

A) Many rich white people are socially liberal.

B) They vote conservative simply because it serves their financial interests. It's not greed, it's self-bias. You vote for things that benefit you.

C) But also, many rich people are still relatively socially conservative. Especially Boomers. Old people simply don't understand new things and don't feel comfortable with new things. Some Cold War Boomer is not gonna appreciate Marxism or some latest transgender queer social theory. A lot of this SJW culture is new. It didn't exist 30 years ago. You only learn it if you go to university in the 21st century. Even when I was university (2003-2007), very little of this SJW stuff was taught. I didn't encounter it in my university almost at all.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

28 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Nobody votes based on that. People vote based on vibe. Carter's vibe was too soft in a Cold War era.

Yes, people do vote based on vibes. My dad who has always been a center-left Democrat also thought that Carter was too soft on military and foreign policy. 

He lost re-election because of a combination of being unfairly blamed for the late 70s stagflation crisis, his lack of charisma, Reagan's historic levels of charisma, and Carter's impractical/unrealistic pacifist philosophies.

However, if most Americans, who are indeed uninformed, don't vote for candidates based on their policies, then why are most of them willing to vote out a candidate, who has held some kind of office before, if they disapprove of his voting record and whatever policies that politician enacted during his/her time in office? If Manchin ever voted for any kind of progressive or very liberal legislation then he would more than likely lose his US Senate seat in West Virginia to some Republican who is even more conservative than he has ever been.

28 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

A) Many rich white people are social liberal.

B) They vote conservative simply because it serves their financial interests. It's not greed, it's self-bias. You vote for things that benefit you.

A) Oh yeah, of course many rich white people like Warren Buffett are socially liberal. Though I thought that a narrow majority of rich white folk in America have been right-wingers.

B) If you just vote for things that benefit you and you are financially well off and living comfortably, then why isn't that selfish?

Edited December 5, 2022 by Hardkill

[StarStruck]

I wanted to skip that episode. I will definitely watch it now.

[Soul_Guy]

I had some thoughts about how the whole idea of "freedom," which is traditionally a liberal value, has been adopted by conservatives recently. All the complaining about censorship and freedom of speech.

While freedom of speech is more of a liberal Stage Green value, Stage Green is still Tier 1 and tends to be intolerant of other stages. So while they are supportive of freedom of speech, when it comes to things that they vehemently disagree with, they push to censor and ban it. And this is what is making conservatives so passionate about freedom of speech nowadays - it's only because they are now being affected directly by the liberals censoring them on a large scale.

Also, I think that the current backlash against censorship committed by liberals can come from two perspectives. There is the conservative perspective, which I explained above - they are mad because it's affecting them directly but they would also censor liberals if they had the chance. But also I think it could come from a Stage Yellow perspective - Stage Green is going a bit overboard with the censorship and not able to see the validity of other points of views - a Stage Yellow perspective would allow for more discussion on these topics and not just shut down conversation. I think that this is the perspective that Owen Cook might be coming from when he talks about this stuff, but I'm not sure.

What do you guys think?

 

[Leo Gura]

There do exist legit free speech issues, but conservatives whining about Twitter and Hunter Biden are not addressing those, they are just weaponizing the issue in their culture war against Libs.

If Musk/conservatives were serious about free speech within social media, they would be calling for these platforms to be taken out of the private sphere and regulated as public squares by the government -- in which case 1st Amendment rights would apply.

Their cries of censorship are just self-biased whining.

Edited December 6, 2022 by Leo Gura

[sholomar]

To me traditional conservatism is about embracing the eudimonic aspect of life, if you watch Leo's older video on the happiness spectrum.  When I think of "liberal" I think of rampant hedonism, people who like to experiment with drugs, have wild sex, party, and chase short term dopamine hits over long term goals. They want to be lazy, sit around, get paid to do nothing by the government. The reality is that these are black and white definitions and the truth is somewhere in the middle and more blurred.

It takes self discipline to not chase hedonism. I know plenty of "conservatives" (or more accurately said "republicans") that chase hedonism, so my definitions are just a perception, and much like language, imprecise. My father and I are  are both very environmentally conscious and go out of our way not to waste food and energy, and we both tend to be more frugal with our money.  Most republicans I know are anything but.. they blow all their money, buy fancy carbon emitting toys, live paycheck to paycheck. How do you define a conservative?  I know a lot of liberals who are picky eaters and will go to a buffet and throw away half the food on their plate, must have the temperature just so and will pay to keep it that way, among other things. What of the wealthy people flying private jets while they preach about climate change and carbon emissions?

I always say talk is cheap. Look at what someone does, not what they say, and then forgive them, because they are only human.

Should we be regulating what people can and can't do for their own good? Each "side" (two sides of the same coin) wants to tell people what to do, how to live their lives. Culture is a living, breathing, constantly changing entity. The base argument comes down to order versus chaos. What should people be allowed to do, what shouldn't they be allowed to do? How much power should one person be able to have over another?  I'd say the terms "liberal" and "conservative" should not be linked with "democrat" or "republican" because there are plenty of each in both these parties.   There are infinite perspectives. I hate being told I must pick only 2 options. I don't want to part of a herd, collectivist mindset.  Maybe it's good to keep the sheep thinking they have a choice, but it doesn't work for me.

I enjoy consuming Leo's content in Audio form during a relaxing, 45 minute drive each way to Sioux Falls on I-29, so I might just plan an impromptu Costco run just to enjoy his newest content.

Edited December 6, 2022 by sholomar

[Extreme Z7]

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

If Musk/conservatives were serious about free speech within social media, they would be calling for these platforms to be taken out of the private sphere and regulated as public squares by the government -- in which case 1st Amendment rights would apply.

Free Speech Absolutists: "Put the Government in charge?!! HISSSSSSSSSSSS!!!"

They then disintigrate like vampires left under the sun.

[trenton]

@Leo Gura you mentioned Denis prager in the video. can you show any examples of him demonstrating healthy conservatism?

one thing I notice is that the feeling of judgement that a person or group is dirty in any way makes my mind more resistant to listening to such people. If I want to be open minded then I can't afford to think of things as bad. Then again I see prager with the daily wire which misled me a lot before and as you mentioned prageru is full of straw mans of the left. I probably need to compartmentalize people and things more specifically to make my assertions less broad and general.

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, trenton said:

@Leo Gura you mentioned Denis prager in the video. can you show any examples of him demonstrating healthy conservatism?

I posted a video interview of him on my blog about 2 months back. It's quite good. Check it out.

Quote

one thing I notice is that the feeling of judgement that a person or group is dirty in any way makes my mind more resistant to listening to such people. If I want to be open minded then I can't afford to think of things as bad.

This is an error on your part. If you want to be truly openminded then you cannot let petty human emotional reactions influence your investigations of reality. Being openminded means thinking about all sorts of ugly things.

Quote

Then again I see prager with the daily wire which misled me a lot before and as you mentioned prageru is full of straw mans of the left. I probably need to compartmentalize people and things more specifically to make my assertions less broad and general.

Look, I never said Prager was some genius. He's locked deep in stage Blue, and those limitations will be obvious to you. He says plenty of unintelligent things. However, he is a good example of an intelligent and consistent stage Blue conservative. He is not merely some MAGA moron. He has put a lot of thought into this conservativism.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

46 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I posted a video interview of him on my blog about 2 months back. It's quite good. Check it out.

This is an error on your part. If you want to be truly openminded then you cannot let petty human emotional reactions influence your investigations of reality. Being openminded means thinking about all sorts of ugly things.

Look, I never said Prager was some genius. He's locked deep in stage Blue, and those limitations will be obvious to you. He says plenty of unintelligent things. However, he is a good example of an intelligent and consistent stage Blue conservative. He is not merely some MAGA moron. He has put a lot of thought into this conservativism.

Prager seems very similar to Ben Shapiro as both of them are intelligent conservative Jews.

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Prager seems very similar to Ben Shapiro as both of them are intelligent conservative Jews.

I found him more intelligent than Shapiro. Shapiro is just so blatantly ideological and partisan.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I found him more intelligent than Shapiro. Shapiro is just so blatantly ideological and partisan.

I see what you mean.

Though Shapiro's argument sound very cogent, created his own successful business from scratch, and he still graduated Harvard Law School at an age that's earlier than that of typical law school graduates.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

I just cannot listen to a single thing Shaprio says seriously. He's so childishly biased.

His political analysis is a joke.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Leo Gura

[trenton]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I posted a video interview of him on my blog about 2 months back. It's quite good. Check it out.

This is an error on your part. If you want to be truly openminded then you cannot let petty human emotional reactions influence your investigations of reality. Being openminded means thinking about all sorts of ugly things.

Look, I never said Prager was some genius. He's locked deep in stage Blue, and those limitations will be obvious to you. He says plenty of unintelligent things. However, he is a good example of an intelligent and consistent stage Blue conservative. He is not merely some MAGA moron. He has put a lot of thought into this conservativism.

I will certainly check this out.

I can see that it even Ken Wilber makes mistakes in how he analyzes Trump, then I could think along the lines that a person is smart in one way and foolish in another. From this point of view the goal is to sort out where a person's expertise is. If I have to sort the wheat from the chaff in many worldviews, then petty emotions are commonly designed to prevent fuller understanding.

Thank you for your work.

[DocWatts]

Kind of late to the party for this one, but for as much as Spirituality forms the 'core' of actualized.org, his Leo's videos on applied Systems Thinking for sociological topics has been some of the best content he's produced (in my opinion at least).

Will be interesting watching this after recently finishing Jonathan Haidt's book 'The Righteous Mind', which also takes a descriptive approach to the dispositional initiations from which liberal and conservative belief systems are derived.

@Leo Gura

Any plans on doing a vid on Marxism or Fascism at some point? I know you've touched on these topics elsewhere, but it would be valuable to give these ideologies the 'treatment' that you've applied to the more mainstream ideologies.

Edited December 7, 2022 by DocWatts

[DocWatts]

@Leo Gura

Also kudos man for making strides in the way you present triggering topics. While a provocative and iconoclastic tone can be engaging and situationally appropriate for certain domains, there are times when it's felt counterproductive as well.

You've done a really good job at presenting the conservative worldview in a relatively even handed way that's palatable for Green sensibilities, which is obviously the folks who would benefit most from this information.

It will also be interesting to see how you go about presenting the Liberal worldview to more conservatively minded folks.

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by DocWatts

[Recursoinominado]

Agreed, that was one of his best videos.

I consider myself a radical leftist but he made a lot of good points there that made me consider from a tier 2 perspective.

[mr_engineer]

On 12/6/2022 at 11:49 AM, Leo Gura said:

There do exist legit free speech issues, but conservatives whining about Twitter and Hunter Biden are not addressing those, they are just weaponizing the issue in their culture war against Libs.

If Musk/conservatives were serious about free speech within social media, they would be calling for these platforms to be taken out of the private sphere and regulated as public squares by the government -- in which case 1st Amendment rights would apply.

Their cries of censorship are just self-biased whining.

The 1st Amendment rights would apply in theory. In practice, censorship would not at all go away if they were made public platforms. 

In fact, before going ahead with making them public platforms, they would have to create a 'Ministry of Truth' in which they lay down their doctrine of Absolute Truth. And anyone doing 'misinformation' would be officially cancelled. (Sounds Orwellian, but this is what they would have to do to clearly define their agenda for censorship.) 

If they don't do all of this stuff, they would lose their function of 'protecting people'. And the government and its politicians would die. Because in a world where true freedom exists, they have nothing to do. 

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, DocWatts said:

 

Any plans on doing a vid on Marxism or Fascism at some point? I know you've touched on these topics elsewhere, but it would be valuable to give these ideologies the 'treatment' that you've applied to the more mainstream ideologies.

A Captialism vs Socialism video is planned.

2 hours ago, DocWatts said:

@Leo Gura

Also kudos man for making strides in the way you present triggering topics. While a provocative and iconoclastic tone can be engaging and situationally appropriate for certain domains, there are times when it's felt counterproductive as well.

You've done a really good job at presenting the conservative worldview in a relatively even handed way that's palatable for Green sensibilities, which is obviously the folks who would benefit most from this information.

It will also be interesting to see how you go about presenting the Liberal worldview to more conservatively minded folks.

Thanks!