The Trap Of Believing You Will Ever Grasp Infinity Intellectually

[axiom]

8 hours ago, Moksha said:

You can directly realize this, even within the dream. Have you never been Consciousness, in this moment, with no object to focus your awareness on but itself? That epiphany is the point and purpose of meditation.

Yes, ‘I’ have directly realised this, but in the end it was realised that even awareness being aware of nothing but itself still required reflection and thus duality. 

True no-self apparently came some time later. You may not agree, but I am certainly referring to a deeper realisation.

[Blackhawk]

Watch "A trip to infinity" which is available on Netflix.

[Razard86]

4 hours ago, axiom said:

Yes, ‘I’ have directly realised this, but in the end it was realised that even awareness being aware of nothing but itself still required reflection and thus duality. 

True no-self apparently came some time later. You may not agree, but I am certainly referring to a deeper realisation.

If a snake eats its own tail, and is aware that it is eating its own tail...is that a duality? Notice, you are trying to force a duality. Awareness is not a duality, although it could definitely conceptually be seen as one. 

 

[axiom]

40 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

If a snake eats its own tail, and is aware that it is eating its own tail...is that a duality?

Yes

40 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

Notice, you are trying to force a duality. Awareness is not a duality, although it could definitely conceptually be seen as one. 

Awareness is a concept. It's very hard to shake, because the paradigm for your entire life has been "I am aware", or "I exist".

In advanced meditation or on substances such as 5MEO, this "I am aware" can become extremely amplified, i.e. "I AM AWARE!", or just "AWARENESS!"

Yet, awareness was always an illusion.

Any which way you dice it, awareness is always just a conceptualisation about that which appears, or more accurately, that which seems to appear. 

Awareness is the great final concept clung to by the self / Self. It is the last thing the self / Self will desperately hang on to before it is irrevocably obliterated. Once in a "thousand thousand" lifetimes does this happen, the Upanishads say.

Once awareness has dissolved to nothing at all, there is not even a hair's breadth of separation remaining. And there is no going back.

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, axiom said:

In advanced meditation or on substances such as 5MEO, this "I am aware" can become extremely amplified, i.e. "I AM AWARE!", or just "AWARENESS!"

But in 5 meo there is not i am aware, it's only I AM. Then, AM. And at the end....---- nothing. Void. And that is GOD, so, you. 

Consciousness implies being aware of something, which implies the act of being aware, and something to be aware of. It is a wrong term, I never understood why it is used. in 5 meo reality, that is, you, disappears completely, and only the emptiness without limit remains. nobody who is aware of, nothing to be aware of. but this total, absolute void, where there is nothing to be aware of, manifests as absolute freedom. you are that freedom you are not consciousness, you are freedom, that is, total potentiality. then the glory takes place. That is god, the absolute void without limit. And you are that, because only that void is. That void is full of glory, of intelligence, of everything that is possible, because there are no limits. And you recognize yourself as that. Right now the void is , appearing like this moment. 

Edited December 8, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[Moksha]

14 hours ago, axiom said:

Yes, ‘I’ have directly realised this, but in the end it was realised that even awareness being aware of nothing but itself still required reflection and thus duality.

Words have a way of tripping people up, especially when it comes to explaining the unexplainable. Why would awareness require reflection? As I define reflection, it is thought-based. Awareness has no thoughts. In the ultimate state, it is simply aware of itself.

This is why I asked whether you have realized Awareness in meditation. I'm not referring to a conceptual realization, but to direct realization of ultimate reality. The realization is devoid of any thought. It is a profound resonance of sameness realizing itself.

[Razard86]

13 hours ago, axiom said:

Yes

Awareness is a concept. It's very hard to shake, because the paradigm for your entire life has been "I am aware", or "I exist".

In advanced meditation or on substances such as 5MEO, this "I am aware" can become extremely amplified, i.e. "I AM AWARE!", or just "AWARENESS!"

Yet, awareness was always an illusion.

Any which way you dice it, awareness is always just a conceptualisation about that which appears, or more accurately, that which seems to appear. 

Awareness is the great final concept clung to by the self / Self. It is the last thing the self / Self will desperately hang on to before it is irrevocably obliterated. Once in a "thousand thousand" lifetimes does this happen, the Upanishads say.

Once awareness has dissolved to nothing at all, there is not even a hair's breadth of separation remaining. And there is no going back.

Self= Dream, No Self= No Dream. Both are imagination, and both are the same. Reality itself is an illusion, so saying awareness is an illusion isn't really saying anything. Reality is aware of itself, even though it doesn't exist, it can imagine itself into existence. When it becomes aware it becomes a self. 

This is simple and its not complex. All there are is states of consciousness. And the Upanishads is imaginary. Just like everything else.

[axiom]

10 hours ago, Moksha said:

aware of itself… This is why I asked whether you have realized Awareness in meditation. I'm not referring to a conceptual realization, but to direct realization of ultimate reality.

“Aware of itself” is reflection. 

Yes, “achieving” pure awareness in meditation is quite common, and relatively much more easily achieved (so to speak). “I” am very familiar with this apparent state. It doesn’t take much… when “you” are ostensibly “on the path”, it can seem to take a couple of months of dedicated meditation. Certainly within a year.

The error is in thinking this realisation is “final” or “ultimate”. It’s not. I’m not discounting the apparent importance of the state. It can feel profound and it can seem necessary. But it’s more like the beginning state - not something to be seduced by.

Edited December 9, 2022 by axiom

[axiom]

6 hours ago, Razard86 said:

Both are imagination

They are not imagination. Imagination is a concept which implies someone or something that is imagining. That is not what is happening.

A self / Self co-opts appearances and contextualises them as imagination or awareness because both provide a false sense of ownership, thus convincing itself it exists. This is the whole illusion.

Maybe this comes down to semantics. But semantics - especially so in this respect - can be very misleading. The more exacting the language the better the pointer. 

Most people (even the obvious “gurus”) get stuck on the human concept of “awareness”, and it’s a shame, because this is the final hurdle beyond which all separation collapses.

Edited December 9, 2022 by axiom

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, axiom said:

Imagination is a concept which implies someone or something that is imagining.

Well said.That whole story about:  you are dreaming the reality. It always seemed wrong formulated to me. induces the idea that there are two. It's simplistic and anthropocentric 

[Razard86]

1 hour ago, axiom said:

They are not imagination. Imagination is a concept which implies someone or something that is imagining. That is not what is happening.

A self / Self co-opts appearances and contextualises them as imagination or awareness because both provide a false sense of ownership, thus convincing itself it exists. This is the whole illusion.

Maybe this comes down to semantics. But semantics - especially so in this respect - can be very misleading. The more exacting the language the better the pointer. 

Most people (even the obvious “gurus”) get stuck on the human concept of “awareness”, and it’s a shame, because this is the final hurdle beyond which all separation collapses.

You literally do not understand that all of infinity is alive. Through my direct experience I was able to determine that all of infinity is alive. It has emotions. It has memory. It has intelligence. These are NOT human qualities. Imagination is NOT a human quality. Imagination does not imply someone or something that is imagining.

Reality is an infinite mind, it is holographic, and all of it has emotions, and is energetic, and it is alive. That energy is love. It also runs patterns. When you think of a self you think of an individual self. I'm not saying an individual self, I'm saying all of it is one self. This self is constantly dreaming non-stop infinitely and constructing on the fly. 

When you study nature, you study IT. ALL of IT is known by how it expresses itself. You really don't understand that the concept of no self IS THE SAME as ALL is self. There is no difference. There are states of consciousness where you can realize all is self. Right now in your direct experience you can become aware of this nondual state.

Also again a snake being aware that it is eating its own tail, is NOT duality. Perception is itself awareness. Awareness is an expression. What you don't realize is YOU are constructing duality by saying that awareness is a duality. That's like saying sight, and sound are duality because they are two different expressions happening in unison!! You see? Its your own mind constructing differences!!! Awareness is NOT duality, awareness is what everything is MADE of!!

Love is awareness, truth is awareness, energy is awareness. Nothing can be UNKNOWN, or KNOWN, without there first being awareness. What is awareness? The intelligence of reality to consistently wake up to what it is. Everything right now, is just concept. So even arguing that what I am saying is concepts, is itself a concept. There are states you can reach where all language is gone and all there is, is being. At that state, infinity recognizes itself. 

No self is not the highest teaching, it is just one expression of infinity that many enlightened people get stuck on. As a result they miss the other aspects. 

[Razard86]

36 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Well said.That whole story about:  you are dreaming the reality. It always seemed wrong formulated to me. induces the idea that there are two. It's simplistic and anthropocentric 

Seemed wrong to who? Explain that one. Who said it? And well said to who? 

Both of you are creating dualities and you do not even realize it. Awareness = something. Nothing = no awareness. In truth the boundary between both collapses and you realize that lack of consciousness and consciousness are the same. This conversation cannot even happen if there is no awareness.

Again, perception IS AWARENESS. If you cannot understand that sight, sound, feeling, thoughts, all of that is awareness being expressed, then there is nothing that can be done. To doubt that...is to doubt the present moment itself. 

 

[Leo Gura]

Infinity is Intelligence, so of course it can grasp itself. You just can't do it using human finite intelligence. But you can using Infinite Intelligence.

This is a common dogma and mistake I see with spiritual teachings. As if Intelligence is some mere egoic human property and not the cornerstone of God itself.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Breakingthewall]

18 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

Seemed wrong to who? Explain that one. Who said it? And well said to who? 

Both of you are creating dualities and you do not even realize it. Awareness = something. Nothing = no awareness. In truth the boundary between both collapses and you realize that lack of consciousness and consciousness are the same. This conversation cannot even happen if there is no awareness.

Again, perception IS AWARENESS. If you cannot understand that sight, sound, feeling, thoughts, all of that is awareness being expressed, then there is nothing that can be done. To doubt that...is to doubt the present moment itself. 

 

Im saying that the typical phrase: you are god dreaming reality, seems to me poorly formulated. the same as the word conscience. since both imply someone doing something or perceiving something. I have not said that awareness of reality does not exist, only that saying: you are conciousness, leads to confusion. you are reality, and in it there is consciousness. you are not consciousness, which is aware of something called reality

[axiom]

57 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

infinity is alive.

It seems to be alive. It cannot be said that it is alive though. That is just a concept based on its apparent behaviours.

“imagination” is not a human quality. It is a human concept.

Edited December 9, 2022 by axiom

[axiom]

31 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

Awareness = something. Nothing = no awareness.

More accurate would be:

Awareness = illusion.

Nothing = something = appearance.

Edited December 9, 2022 by axiom

[Moksha]

14 hours ago, axiom said:

“Aware of itself” is reflection.

Perhaps awareness is reflection for you. You might consider whether the awareness you have experienced in meditation must be the same awareness others have realized. Your frequent reference to conceptualizations and dualities feels like you are thinking awareness rather than being awareness.

Direct awareness of the ultimate seamless state is the most holy and profound realization, which dissolves me in the serene light of God. It is grace, not an achievement. It erases all boundaries and breaks all chains. There is no suffering in this moment, only the eternal wordless echo of Hallelujah.

As Ram Dass describes it:

I instantly felt a new, profound kind of peace I'd never before experienced. I had just found the "I" - that perceptual point of view, that essence of identity, that scanning device. I'd found that place of awareness beyond form, where "I" exists independent of social and psychological roles. This "I" was beyond time and space.

And this "I" -knew-, it really -knew-. It was wise, rather than just knowledgeable. It was a voice inside that spoke truth. I recognized it and was one with it. I felt as if my entire life of looking to the outside world for affirmation and reassurance was over. Now all I needed was to look within, to that place where I -knew-.

I was just -presence-, unfettered by the usual slipstream of random thoughts, images, and sensations. I nestled into this sense of pure -being-, feeling my way into this timeless, inner self that was independent of outer identity. I felt no need to -do- anything.

[Leo Gura]

Awareness is just Absolute Truth.

Absolute Truth is self-aware.

What are you guys arguing about?

Edited December 10, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Moksha]

24 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Awareness is just Absolute Truth.

Absolute Truth is self-aware.

^^^

People are digging themselves into a conceptual grave by applying subject > object relative reality logic to ultimate reality. 

It all collapses into the singularity that is Consciousness. If that word doesn't point for people, maybe Void or No-Self or Love or God helps more. It is not about the words, but about directly realizing the reality that they describe.

Rather than grokking your way into awareness, let go of the need to conceptualize and prepare for the grace of being. It happens when You choose for it to happen, and when it does enjoy the dream lucidly without trying to explain it.

[axiom]

11 hours ago, Moksha said:

Your frequent reference to conceptualizations and dualities feels like you are thinking awareness rather than being awareness.

There is no such thing as awareness. This applies “before” awakening, during any apparent state in which you can seem to *be* awareness, and “after” awakening.

No awareness, ever. It’s simply not a thing.